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#116722 - 12/28/14 11:41 PM Probe sizing??
hairynomore Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/12
Posts: 3
Background: DIY electrolysis, Clairblend machine- {using mostly "Autoblend" (therm/galv), not using "manualblend"}, doing male and female nether regions, dark hair.


We have been using the probes that were included with the machine (.003 uniprobes) I think these are a bit on the thin side as the hairs measure out at .004/5 (kinda hard to measure) and I think these probes are closer for arm hair.
So my question is how critical is it to use "the" correct size probe? I am thinking of getting 5s but dont want to end up with a bunch of probes that end up being too large to be useful.

On a side note I have noticed that the male "shaft" hairs are probably the hardest to effectively get- I am guessing this is fairly normal.

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#116730 - 12/29/14 10:35 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: hairynomore]
Michael Bono Offline

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Probe size (and type) is critical and yet often overlooked by both DIYers and "pros."

My simple (crude) rule-of-thumb is to use a needle that is at least the thickness of the hairs being treated. If there is an "error," I will error on the side of the needle being a bit too large.

It's all about the correct distribution of the HF-thermolysis and the appropriate heating of the follicle to maximize kill-rate and minimize skin reaction.

Especially on the "Schnitzel" ... a large needle is manditory.

Think about this. Imagine you have a Porsche (nice huh?) Then, you put "any old" tire on the car ... and wonder why it's not performing like a "Porsche should."

Indeed, you would pick the right tires for your specific car AND for the road conditions you will be encountering. Snow tires when needed, and "slicks" for drag racing.

It wouldn't matter which car you're driving if you're using crummy tires ... it's REALLY like that in electrolysis!

For the Schnitzel: find the correct tapered needle (but you can't find them any more) ... so "go" with the correct size insulted (my suggestion anyway). But minimum ... the correct thickness!

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#116734 - 12/29/14 03:59 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Laurier Offline
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Can't get tapered anymore ? We've been making the ONLY tapered two-piece needle since the 1960's and still do
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Makers of the Laurier Insulated Bulbous Probe.

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"The perfect violin is worthless unless in the hands of one who can play it well"

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#116743 - 12/30/14 01:12 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Laurier]
Michael Bono Offline

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Hi Mike,

You did send me some Laurier "tapered needles" some time ago.

They are not really tapered needles.

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#116745 - 12/30/14 02:40 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Laurier Offline
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I suggest you get out a micrometer and find out you are incorrect. Measure it at the stem and then measure it again at the tip. You will find a linear taper.
_________________________
Makers of the Laurier Insulated Bulbous Probe.

www.laurierinstruments.com

"The perfect violin is worthless unless in the hands of one who can play it well"

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#116746 - 12/30/14 11:46 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Laurier]
Michael Bono Offline

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Of course Mike ... but an authentic tapered needle is not the one you make. The slight "linear taper" you are talking about is not significant.

Maybe you can post a photo of your needle here on Hairtell so folks can see what I'm talking about. That would be fun for all of us, and very helpful too.

The needles you sent me (I don't have them any more) were labeled "tapered" but not the genuine article that I'm looking for ...

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#116747 - 12/30/14 01:12 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Deedra Offline

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I would love to see the difference between the tapered probe Mike Bono uses and the tapered probe that Mike Roy makes. Both probes work well to destroy hair follicles and that doesn't go unnoticed. Just proves the point that the are many ways to achieved permanent hair removal under the banner called electrolysis.
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Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#116748 - 12/30/14 01:17 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: ]
Deedra Offline

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Mike B., the tapered Hinkel probes are not insulated, correct? Since you do a fast blend, am I correct to assume that you don't want to use an insulated probe so the follicle is not impeded and can fill with lye?
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Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#116749 - 12/30/14 01:17 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: ]
Deedra Offline

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Mike R., do you recommend not using an insulated probe for blenders?
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#116753 - 12/30/14 03:37 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: ]
Michael Bono Offline

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Somewhat Dee, but actually a perfectly straight needle works perfectly for DC lye production. The tapered needle (maybe we need to change the name?) is only for modifying the HF-thermolysis pattern.

Most people that use tapered needles don't use them correctly so they see no difference. I'm going to have Eric take a photo of one of my last Hinkel-type probes to highlight the "funnel-shape" that is the heart of using tapered needles correctly.

The history of these needles is also fascinating ...

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#116755 - 12/30/14 04:25 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Laurier Offline
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The Laurier taper is designed to closely match the natural taper of the follicle. A one-piece needle does not do that. The taper also aids insertion of the smaller tip sizes.

No Dee, I do not recommend any insulated needle or probe for "classic" or slow blend. That method depends on the production of lye and the insulation becomes self defeating due to the reduced conductive surface area. For fast blend where the RF is doing most of the work, the IBP works quite well.
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Makers of the Laurier Insulated Bulbous Probe.

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"The perfect violin is worthless unless in the hands of one who can play it well"

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#116759 - 12/30/14 06:30 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Laurier]
Michael Bono Offline

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I'll get back with a full explanation of this emerging "issue." But for now, the purpose of a tapered needle is not to "fit" the "natural taper of a follicle, but to introduce an "unnatural" shape to maximize HF efficiency. Besides, a follicle is not "cone shaped" or naturally "tapered." I have looked at thousands of follicles under the microscope (during hair transplant surgery) and there is no "taper" to a follicle.

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#116766 - 12/30/14 10:52 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
fenix Offline
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Originally Posted By: Michael Bono
Somewhat Dee, but actually a perfectly straight needle works perfectly for DC lye production. The tapered needle (maybe we need to change the name?) is only for modifying the HF-thermolysis pattern.

Most people that use tapered needles don't use them correctly so they see no difference. I'm going to have Eric take a photo of one of my last Hinkel-type probes to highlight the "funnel-shape" that is the heart of using tapered needles correctly.

The history of these needles is also fascinating ...

You have said it many a times that most people use tapered needles incorrectly. But since you're running out of your last treasured tapered needles, you should take photos and better yet videos for us to show proper insertions with tapered needles. Even if most of modern electrolysis today wouldn't look back at tapered needles at all, it would be fun to document history for educational purposes.

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#116768 - 12/31/14 12:13 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: fenix]
Michael Bono Offline

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I want to point out that my opinions and "criticisms" have nothing to do with anything on ANY personal level at all. My fervent belief is that we only progress forward when we are 100% neutral on a personal level ... but fearless to point out either misdeeds or products that could use improvement. Below, I'm criticizing two of my most beloved friends ...

Moisture gradient: Hinkel's book talks about a "moisture gradient" in the skin, i.e., allegedly wetter in the deeper tissues, and progressively dryer in the upper tissues. This is a fallacy. (I learned this reality from plastic surgeons and dermatologists). Pretty much only the super-thin epidermis is "dryer" (inconsequential for electrolysis) and, for the most part, you can toss out this entire "moisture gradient" notion.

Papilla location: Hinkel's book misinterpreted an "incorrect" drawing by William Montagna (in his landmark book on the skin). I know this, because Montagna himself told me his drawing was wrong. He was stunned and apologetic (yes, I questioned his drawing with my big fat mouth!). Consequently, for years people assumed that the papilla remains at "full anagen depth" (got confused about this "dermal cord" business) as the hair goes through various growth stages. Not so! And, that's another error that won't die easily. (And, probably at the heart of the killing "anagen only" silliness?)

Progressive epilation: Hinkel said that hairs "progessively" lift out of the follicle. Again, not so at all. Once your currents have reached the anchor, the hair slides out quickly; there is nothing gradual about how hairs "release." I did keep Hinkel's term in my book, but tried to switch the name to "two-handed technique," because there is no "progressive epilation."

All these errors remain in Hinkel's text ... and "the beat goes on!"

Ballet tips: My photo, the other day, showed the dreadful needle tip of Ballet tapered needles: blunt and difficult to insert (as opposed to the Laurier tip that is beautiful; and you can see this in the photo). I also spoke to Jim Paiser about this difficulty and he said he reported it to the factory. (I had just bought 3 packets of these, and they are nearly unusable). Note, Jim is one of my most beloved friends!

The point is that I'm an "equal opportunity pain in the butt." My criticism has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings for anyone ... I only wanted to point that out.

I will put together a little explanation of the tapered needles (with a good photo). Interesting that the "real item" was hand-made (drawn) on a jeweler's lathe and there were TWELVE sizes. (I'll try to make it short!)

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#116769 - 12/31/14 12:24 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

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And, I will bet you "dollars to doughnuts" that I have a bunch of incorrect information in my books too. Writers often accept information from earlier books ... and so errors and myths are continued on-and-on.

I need to look at "them suckers" and start re-writing. Remember, because something is "in a book" does not therefore make it absolute truth.

Hey, even God Himself got to do a "re-write!" You know the "Old Testament," and the re-write ... the "New Testament?" If God can be humble in his statements ... I suppose we can be too?

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#116775 - 01/01/15 02:09 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
hairynomore Offline
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Registered: 12/10/12
Posts: 3
So how do you go about sizing the correct size probe? I do have a micrometer and caliper...and that seems easy/logical and maybe overkill on regular hairs. But how do you determine between a 4, 5, 6 when dealing with "curly hairs"?

Maybe the taper ones that you have Michael could be called "conical probes"?

Schnitzel lol that brings back memories of my childhood.

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#116777 - 01/01/15 07:40 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: hairynomore]
Michael Bono Offline

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The original tapered needles were ground (pulled) using a jeweler's lathe; then hand polished. The needle had a slight taper to the blade (like Laurier), but most importantly, a funnel shape (or wedge) that is the key to its design.

The properly made "wedge" was inserted down into the follicle itself. As you know, thicker needles are colder ... and the HF current rise is therefore "slower" when it reaches the thicker part.

The angle of the wedge is important: too oblique and the effect is lost; not enough angle and you can't insert the wedge. (I'm being very brief here and not technical so this doesn't become an epic post!)

Those using blend or manual thermolysis (and some autos) were trained to select a needle that would fit precisely in the follicle. There were 12 sizes and finding the right one was not difficult. Picking a needle was done by "eye," and you actually can get REALLY good at it.

I prefer tapered over insulated because I have active current on the bare needle with a graduated HF temperature variance. In this way, I simply wait until current has reached the anchor (and all the growth elements) and then remove the hair. (Needle is kept in the follicle for the last "few seconds" of DC).

The wedge design "buys me more time" and allows me accurate current placement. With insulated needles, the current placement is limited ("Plus & Minus; "off & on") and I'm not exactly sure where the HF has been placed. With tapered, there is no question.

The death of the tapered needle was caused by mandatory sterile/disposable needles. Hand-made was out of the question. Modern techniques making these needles involve a graduated acid-etching procedure and it works sort-of okay.

Larry Douglas (Washington) was the last to hand-make these needles (but horrible to deal with). The Japanese company that made the Hinkel probes (only three sizes! burned down. Ballet sizes are not quite right and the tips are nasty.

I think most of you would "go tapered" if you had lots of good ones and the time to use them. You need a lot of time and experience before you make any decision on anything. Probably not going to happen.

Photos coming in the next post


Edited by Michael Bono (01/01/15 07:42 PM)

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#116778 - 01/01/15 10:04 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

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Above: ("Hinkel-type") Tapered needle. Note the "wedge shape" where the blade transitions into the shaft. It is this wedge that is the hallmark of the tapered needle. This wedge is inserted down into the follicle.


Above: Tapered needle tip on the "Japanese made"-Hinkel "large" needle.


Above: Transition point between (tapered) blade and needle shank. The upper half, or more, of the "wedge" is commonly inserted into the follicle.


Above: Shaft of tapered needle. You see some distortion, but this is from the microscope.

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#116779 - 01/01/15 10:07 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

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Actually, the Ballet tapered are pretty decent ... I used one tonight (beard case) and got the results I was looking for. My hope is that Jim will consider fiddling with the sizes and improve the tips.

Since tapered needles are not his "biggest seller" there is little enthusiasm for the expense of re-tooling. However, if these become a "hit" ... well, there it is!

Everything is "economics" isn't it?

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#116780 - 01/01/15 10:10 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

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Additionally, the first photo makes the needle look a bit fatter than it actually is, because there is a shadow (below the needle) ... my nephew Eric took the photo with some very basic equipment.

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#116782 - 01/02/15 12:21 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Laurier Offline
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Can you give me a diameter of the larger part of the cone ?
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"The perfect violin is worthless unless in the hands of one who can play it well"

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#116783 - 01/02/15 03:56 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Laurier]
Laurier Offline
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If the large part does not exceed .007" I can probably do that. I'll need the diameter and length of the smaller part also. You can use the exposed tip of one of our larger sizes for a measuring stick to measure the length of the smaller tip under the scope.
_________________________
Makers of the Laurier Insulated Bulbous Probe.

www.laurierinstruments.com

"The perfect violin is worthless unless in the hands of one who can play it well"

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#116784 - 01/03/15 10:17 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Laurier]
Michael Bono Offline

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I've missed your post Mike, I've been luxuriating in a post-holiday stupor (all visitors and friends are gone! No rotten kids running amok and pulling off my toupee!)

I'd get a hold of Ballet TCS and TCM sizes to have a look-see at tapered needles that are almost appropriate (for most uses). However, I wouldn't waste your time trying to produce these "lovelies."

Those using tapered needles are in "decline" as are those using blend and manual thermolysis. The next decade is "the Dectro decade" for sure as all the other manufacturers (save Instantron) have opted-out ... given in ... "tummied-up." The cowards!

I would suggest sticking to your insulated needle and not waste your time on a product that is mostly misunderstood, not used and in decline.

I hate to say this; but I'm a realist!

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#116785 - 01/03/15 10:36 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
EmancipatedElect Offline
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I'm a fairly new electrologist and while I use an Apilus machine (mostly since I liked them better than the other machines I've played with), I'm all for experimenting with different probes and techniques.

Based on what you've posted and my own background that includes some electrical engineering and medical knowledge, I'd certainly have some interest in trying out non-insulated tapered probes. Having tried insulated probes from Ballet, Protec and Laurier, I definitely prefer the Laurier probes.

That said, I mostly use insulated probes for comfort when sensitivity is an issue, as I feel non-insulated probes offer a better heat profile to the follicle, particularly if the bulge is further away from the papilla. If a pull tapered probe can enhance that further, I'm definitely interested, particularly with the amount of trans faces I do.
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#116786 - 01/03/15 10:49 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: EmancipatedElect]
Laurier Offline
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I do make custom Probes for folks Michael. It probably wouldn't make it to the product list but I'd be glad to make you some if I can have some dimensions. Do you have even a used one you could tape to a sheet of paper and mail to me ?
_________________________
Makers of the Laurier Insulated Bulbous Probe.

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"The perfect violin is worthless unless in the hands of one who can play it well"

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#116787 - 01/03/15 10:54 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: EmancipatedElect]
Michael Bono Offline

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I would order the two sizes I mentioned above from Ballet (TCS and TCM). These work pretty well for beard cases. Actually, it's with the really gigantic hairs (follicles) that the tapered needles are superior ... and, for the exact reasons you state.

I can't tell you how PLEASED I am to hear your understanding of the follicle, i.e., the location of the bulge in relationship to the "anchor." (And in a longer follicle, "exactly where the bulge is" becomes a BIG issue. With a bare needle ... no problema.)

I watched a video yesterday and the electrologist was STILL only "hammering on" about the papilla (only). And, yes, the "anagen only" shite too. So many of "us" don't have a clue.

I will also say that those working with the TG community always seem to end up being the BEST electrologists! If they are TG themselves ... well, they seem (to me) to be at the very TOP of the list of superior operators.

I suppose "being there" gives one desire to get-it-right ... it's not just a hobby or part of the "beauty trade."

For example, I am now 75% finished with a beard case (average moderate beard). We are at 34 hours now, and this case will "come in" less than 60 hours total (that's my average over all these years). I don't think that's a bad average for beard work ... using my "slow method."

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#116788 - 01/03/15 10:56 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

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Mike Roy ... I pray every day that there are more "guys" in the field like you!

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#116838 - 01/08/15 06:51 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
beate_r Offline

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Originally Posted By: Michael Bono

For example, I am now 75% finished with a beard case (average moderate beard). We are at 34 hours now, and this case will "come in" less than 60 hours total (that's my average over all these years). I don't think that's a bad average for beard work ... using my "slow method."


Impressive. Although i am becoming more and more efficient (faster and at the same time needing less energy) there is still some learning for me to get there... (i am actually looking forward to seeing outcomes of 70-80 hours).

But You are aware that beside You there are pretty few electrologists, especially blend specialists, who are able to work that fast?
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http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#116840 - 01/08/15 09:51 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
Michael Bono Offline

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But You are aware that beside You there are pretty few electrologists, especially blend specialists, who are able to work that fast?

Beate, on what evidence to you base this statement?

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#116847 - 01/09/15 01:32 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
beate_r Offline

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That's what i see here in Germany.
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Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#116848 - 01/09/15 01:38 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
Michael Bono Offline

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I would ask how many "seen in Germany" electrologists (and their statistics) have you encountered. I mean real numbers.

There is point to my questioning here ... NOT singling you out (too much) ... but there is something here for all of us to consider.

I'm about to make a point ... so, on we go!

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#116850 - 01/09/15 03:20 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
beate_r Offline

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Ok, let me give some numbers:

let's assume a beard consists of 40000 hairs.
lets' assume the electrologist works at 5 hairs per minute (including everything like wiping the dead hairs away which slows the treatment down a lot).

I therefore consider this typical for slow thermolysis and traditional blend as it is taught by the three electrologists i am aware of giving courses in blend. And as i have been taught and practised that in my beginnings.

Assuming a kill rate of 100%,
this will lead to a treatment time of 8000 minutes.

8000 minutes is equal to about 133 hours.
Total treatment time at 100% kill rate.

Assuming a kill rate near 50% will lead You to the order of 250 hours which is often reported as a ballpark figure for treatment time for beard removal.

If You are going twice as fast as those 133 hours, You need to make something really different, even more as a kill rate of 100% is hardly realistic.

I do not doubt Your estimate. It just shows me that You must be working really different from what i have been taught as blend (and what i started to do better from day 1 on).
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Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#116851 - 01/09/15 04:50 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
Michael Bono Offline

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That' s a good well-reasoned answer Beate ... where does the assumption of 40,000 beard hairs come from?

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#116852 - 01/09/15 05:12 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

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Indeed, there are difference sources for this, but from Gillette (the beard shaver people), here's what they say (check the web yourself!):

Q: How many hairs are in a man's beard?
A: A man's beard typically contains between 7,000 and 15,000 hair follicles, a number that is genetically determined. No new follicles are formed after birth.

So using your computation (based on the HIGH Gillette figure of 15,000, and your "5-hairs per minute"), that would be 50 hours of work ... and that's just about where I "come in" on beards ... actually, 60 to 80 is what I tell most of my beard clients.

My estimates are not "pulled out of my butt," but based on what I've been doing for 40 years. Indeed, people have accused me of LYING (directly and in more subtle tones) ... But if LYING were the case, just how would I deal with clients to whom I have given my estimates?

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#116853 - 01/09/15 06:34 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
beate_r Offline

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I did not accuse You of lying at all. It is quite obvious that either the estimate of hair follicles might be wrong or that You were working faster than 5 hairs per minute (which i know is easily possible in blend, even if You do not use something like Your "body technique".

The number of hairs is taken from at least one of my textbooks on electrolysis. Or maybe has been given by Iris Gminsky during my initial training (her material is based on Your book). A while ago James posted another number here in Hairtell - 57000 hairs removed or so. I have also seen somewhat smaller numbers, but always significantly larger than in the Gilette FAQ. Again, there are huge differences in the number of hairs in a beard: people with huge whiskers appear to me to have fewer hairs then the fine-haired -group i also belong to.




A few years ago, has been a questionnaire among electrologists in the Fachverband Elektrologie - colleagues were asked to give estimates on a few epilation situations. The times ranged form 80 to 400 hours, and there was a clear split between the "blenders" and the "fast thermolysis fraction", the first one being all slow. And that again corresponds to everything i hear from the trans communities.

Back to the probe issue: i am fully with You in that the fine details of epilation probes do matter a lot. Your Hinkel-type probes seem to be as optimized for Your working style as the IBP is for flash thermolysis (and Mike's tapered probe nearly as well).

A negative example is in my eyes the Sterex 2-piece probe: basically it is doing its job - i need only moderately larger settings than with the IBP, like with most other brands. But the people find treatments with that probe really painful compared to *all* other probes i tried. At least the larger sizes (i am still trying them in size 4 and 5 occasionally) feel pretty similar on insertions to Mike's probes, so my insertions do not seem to be the problem.
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Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
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#116854 - 01/09/15 10:11 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3515
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
During my time at Hinkel's school we worked on a lot of TG clients. Hinkel would tell us that about 100 hours (blend) would be your average beard time. He also had us tell the new patients the same. It worked out that way ... with student work.

I will have more to say on this topic in the morning. Lots of work today.

Another way to "compute" the amount of hairs in a beard would be to take clients, average the hair-to-minute and total hours and thus make a conclusion of the number of hairs.

I would guess that Iris Gminski would give a very high number of hairs ... remember, I know Iris pretty well ... both in Europe and here too.

Remember, doing any technique is not "a machine" or even a modality.

Still, I know I'm never going to convince you ... of anything.

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#116855 - 01/10/15 09:19 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3515
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
As to the questionnaire, I would ask, "how many people took part in the survey?" Ten people? Twenty-five? Two hundred? Numbers count in such a survey. (Nobody asked me or any other electrologist I know.)

The variance of 80 to 400 hours tells me that some rank amateurs were involved or the beards were wildly different in hair count. Still, "57,000 hairs in a beard" is laughable. Where do people come up with these numbers?

(I do remember, with a bit of humor, the several times Iris phoned me and ever-so-seriously asked, "How many hairs are there in a man's beard?" I find the question somewhat absurd. I'm not actually a "bean counter.")

But none of this matters when minds are made up and decisions are set in stone. "The blend is slow, and anesthetic is dangerous" ... and that's that! End of discussion. One will find the evidence to support the supposition.

However, for some corroboration Dee Dee is going to see one of my (our) favorite clients this week ... thus she can see and report on what she observes. She has my data in hours, the area (only) I cleared two times, and an impeccably honest client ... She can report what I've done.

One nice "thing?" I don't have to prove ANYTHING to my clients!

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#116856 - 01/11/15 05:26 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: Michael Bono]
beate_r Offline

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Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 900
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
Originally Posted By: Michael Bono
... "57,000 hairs in a beard" is laughable. Where do people come up with these numbers?


I already mentioned the source and the author.

Again, i do not put any doubt in the efficiency of You work!

We have some data which apparently contradicts each other. So instead of getting upset i would suggest to look more closely for the reasons of the discrepancies. There may be many, and i think we would learn from each other. Mostly i from You, of course.

Quote:

But none of this matters when minds are made up and decisions are set in stone. "The blend is slow, and anesthetic is dangerous" ... and that's that! End of discussion.


We should avoid mixing independent topics. Anestetic is potentially dangereous. That German woman really died, and the scars in my face are not only real but are beginning to be more visible as i am growing older (not unexpectedly). BTW - the injections themselves were so painful that it almost was not worth the effort. And it is not only me reporting this from that specific technique. (BTW: in by far most cases where i observe inefficiency of EMLA treatment the clients did not cover the treated area correctly).

So i can easily understand and accept in an at least general sense that anestetic is under strict regulation and therefore out of reach for most electrologists. But thats a wholly different story than the efficiency of out treatments. And be assured: i am always open to learn.


Edited by beate_r (01/11/15 05:30 AM)
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Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#116857 - 01/11/15 10:00 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3515
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
The issue I'm seeing here is what a person says or thinks in the face of dealing with something they have no experience with or real understanding about. To me that's the issue.

But I have lost interest in continuing this topic because I realize there is no possibility of you seeing that basic issue. I'm not talking about (or so interested in) the "subjects," but the way in which the subjects are approached. So many of us (in this dreadful little profession) establish opinions immediately ... without first seeking out an abundance of facts.

For example, to date, you have not bothered to actually ASK me precisely what I'm doing with "the blend?" ... I mean in a nice "fact-finding manner." But you have made assumptions and ridiculed what I'm doing ... saying, "it's not possible." Okay ... not in so many words ... but in essence YES, ridicule!

Let me try to make this abundantly clear. In this painfully long thread, have you asked me what I'm doing? No you have not. But you have done your mathematical computations, based on your assumptions, and reasoned that what I'm doing is not possible.

On the subject of anesthetic? You only mention the danger issue and legal issue and your own experience. Have you ever asked Josefa what she's doing? Have you gone to Spain to see and appreciate what she's doing? Have you traveled to close-by Spain to see for yourself?"

No! But you certainly don't hesitate in proclaiming and denouncing what you have very limited experience with.

For anyone silly enough to be reading through all this, as always I'm looking at the "big picture!" And this attitude is what I see ALL the time in our profession. So, in truth Beate ... this post is NOT about you ... it's about all of us and what I see as an annoying flaw that has kept this group in an ongoing uneducated state.

For me, that's a very big issue and I have been insulted by several of your posts that reflect a basic intransigence. But that's really okay ... let's just forget this issue and move on. Some "mountains" cannot be climbed.

Oh, and by the way, I REALLY like you a LOT! I'm not kidding! Don't take any of this personally! Everybody knows what a royal pain in the butt I am!

I'm also thankful for this thread. I think it might give some of us an issue to ponder?

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#116862 - 01/11/15 03:49 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
beate_r Offline

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Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 900
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
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Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#116864 - 01/11/15 07:06 PM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
beate_r Offline

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Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 900
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
The above post has been posted by mistake and as an empty post. At that time i did not want to post at all.


Numbers like the ones i used in my ballpark estimate are readily available in the literature and on the net, and can be assumed to be known to our clients, at least the informed ones. I actually did that estimate during those long and painful hours of my first block treatment (that was fast thermolysis) at a time before i even considered to become an electrologist myself.


Please let me quote myself from from further upward:

Quote:
I do not doubt Your estimate. It just shows me that You must be working really different from what i have been taught as blend


So please explain - that has been exactly the question to You on what you were doing. The question You expected from but apparently have overlooked.



BTW: i know that You are able to work a lot faster than 5 hairs per second. I even have a rough idea how You achieve that, and i have done a lot of work in blend at 10-15 hairs per minute.
What i do not know is to which degree You are applying these techniques in facial work.

In my previous posts i tried pretty hard to give You every possibility to explain - so please do explain.


Edited by beate_r (01/11/15 07:40 PM)
_________________________
Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#116869 - 01/12/15 10:38 AM Re: Probe sizing?? [Re: beate_r]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3515
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Beate, you are not going to see the point. I realize that.

Since you "want me on the carpet," let me tell you that with beard hairs, my epilation time is from 3 to 6 seconds. I'll let you do the mathematical computations.

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