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#121842 - 05/05/16 08:40 PM Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal
hairh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 7
Signed up for laser on my chest, neck, arms, and shoulder blades. Price is about 1800. They use a palomar vectus machine. Today I saw on the machine 18mm and 10 joules. There is some pain when doing the various areas, particlarly when there's a lot of hair in that given area. I am of Irish descent, probably skin type III.

Today was my second treatment. I'm just concerned that the settings are too low. The tech said they just plug in the skin type and the machine picks the appropriate setting. After my first treatment I have a lot of pepperspots. Anyway I know you get questions like this all the time but I've waited years to get treated and I'm scared everything will just grow back and I'll be out 2K.

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#121846 - 05/06/16 08:42 AM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Deedra Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9712
Loc: United States
OH dear...... well good luck to you.

I assume you are a man? Laser is more risky for men's upper arms and shoulder area, as far as laser stimulating more hair to grow. It is a gamble. Will it work or will you have no results .... or will it wake up more hair?

The laser brand? This is a subject that I am not an expert on because I do electrolysis only, but over the many years of being here on HairTell, the folks have said that the powerful Candela lasers are great choices.

Being Irish, do you have coarse, dense, dark hair? If you don't , you may be wasting your money.

Good luck to you in the most sincere way possible.
_________________________
Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#121848 - 05/06/16 09:26 AM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Being one myself, I know “a guy thing” when I see it. We tend to JUMP into things and make snap decisions based on “just wanting to get this done … RIGHT NOW!” After we spend our money … well, then we start to ask questions.

I don’t want to stimulate the predicted response from the laser enthusiast/experts, and we all know the “it worked on me” retort … and that’s fine; good for you! Laser is usually fine on legs, not so good on the face or back. Still, like Dee Dee I ain’t gettin’ into the laser flap again. Talk is cheap. “It worked on me!” “It didn’t work on me!” So what? Who cares? What are the stats?

I’ll only comment that in the last 10-years, every man that finally ends up having electrolysis with me has spent an average of $3,000 to $5,000 on laser that either didn’t work, worked somewhat (but not enough), created strange patterns or made more hair grow.

And, it’s what we “dudes” do … we “blow the dough” and then start asking questions.

What’s reasonable? Get an actual estimate! … whether you are doing electrolysis or laser ask the right questions. Get the technician to predict the outcome, the amount of MONEY you are likely to spend and just what the hell happens IF IT DOESN’T WORK OUT! Or, what happens if it’s worse than when you started!

Guys … we spend more time getting the right mechanic to work on our car than on technicians who will be working on our BODY! I do it too: leap before I think! Ever done a bungee-jump and then half-way down start wondering if the thing is tied-off properly?

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#121850 - 05/06/16 06:20 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
hairh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 7
Lol I am a guy but I didn't completely jump in blind. They told me that if they do the "package" they will do additional treatments if needed. I don't have A LOT of hair on my neck and shoulders, its more on my chest and arms. To have so much area treated, I thought the price was reasonable. The machine is a palomar vectus, which I thought was a step up from IPL.

My question was more about if 10 joules is anywhere powerful enough or typical, it seems like no based on what I see people saying online. The FAQs on this website seem to indicate that laser can result in permanent reduction, so I believed that to be true.

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#121851 - 05/06/16 07:10 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
hairy Harry Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 07/08/15
Posts: 75
I don't mean to belittle your hair problem,Hairh, but I can't understand men wanting to get hair reduction (unless you're trans) as far as I can see its not a big-deal for men, it's not repulsive nor a turn - off for most women. wink

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#121852 - 05/06/16 07:32 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Deedra Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9712
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By hairh


My question was more about if 10 joules is anywhere powerful enough or typical, it seems like no based on what I see people saying online. The FAQs on this website seem to indicate that laser can result in permanent reduction, so I believed that to be true.


10 joules sounds low, but it is an IPL. I have been told that an IPL is not as good as a real laser, but I did have a trans client that got great results.
_________________________
Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#121853 - 05/06/16 08:12 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Brenton Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 06/09/11
Posts: 721
Loc: SoCal
Something seems off. Are you sure it's a Palomar Vectus? Everything I find online shows it's a Diode laser with 2 spot sizes: 12mmx12mm and 23mmx38mm, so the 18mm spot size doesn't seem to exist on this laser.

I'm not familiar enough with this laser, but 10J is frequently on the lower side for most lasers, especially if you're a type III

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#121854 - 05/06/16 10:55 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
hairh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 7
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Eoxmt5ep-I4

This video shows the machine. I may have been wrong about the spot size. I saw on the screen that it said 10 J/cm2.

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#121869 - 05/10/16 01:38 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
hairh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 7
Anyone else?

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#121871 - 05/10/16 05:40 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
joben Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 11/17/14
Posts: 91
hairh,

Just to reiterate what some others have already said. I'd be very reluctant to have LHR done on certain areas (i.e shoulder blades) for fear of hair stimulation. It happened to me on the back of my neck. I wanted that "clean, fresh from the barber" appearance and thought laser could provide that. I was wrong. I ended up with more hair and at some point will get electrolysis to fix it.

As for laser, I've never used a Palomar laser. It might be good...it might not. I will only be treated with a Candela (1st choice) or Cynosure (2nd). Regardless, 10 Joules sounds VERY low.

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#121874 - 05/10/16 06:54 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Brenton Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 06/09/11
Posts: 721
Loc: SoCal
Normally I'd say 10J is low, but since the machine comes with presets based on the hair type and skin type, I'd be a little surprised if the machine was programmed to do settings that were too low for any permanent removal.

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#121875 - 05/11/16 11:43 AM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: Brenton]
SoCalPurr Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 12/23/15
Posts: 91
Loc: SoCal (Eastvale, CA)
I would actually think the opposite. Settings from the manufacturer most likely err on the side of liability.

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#121876 - 05/11/16 11:51 AM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: SoCalPurr]
Brenton Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 06/09/11
Posts: 721
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By SoCalPurr
I would actually think the opposite. Settings from the manufacturer most likely err on the side of liability.


Perhaps, but then you also have a fraud issue if they're selling a machine with too low settings to do anything

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#121880 - 05/12/16 10:53 AM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairy Harry]
RJRogers Offline
Contributor

Registered: 12/13/15
Posts: 42
Originally Posted By hairy Harry
I don't mean to belittle your hair problem,Hairh, but I can't understand men wanting to get hair reduction (unless you're trans) as far as I can see its not a big-deal for men, it's not repulsive nor a turn - off for most women. wink


Well personally for people like me who have double/triple the hair of a normal man it is very annoying when i go out in public and every single person points out how hairy I am as if I was a freak, I would just like to be able to go out in shorts and feel good with less hair.... that's it. It isn't a gay/bi/trans thing, just a feel good factor.

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#121881 - 05/12/16 12:36 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
When I was 24 and just starting electrolysis treatments on my back, the electrologist asked if I was a “transvestite.” I didn’t know what that was, but it still makes me angry when somebody questions anybody about why they want the hair removed or thinned out.

Basically, it’s none of anybody’s damned business. There is no right or wrong (it’s just hair), and those that question others have no right to voice their opinion … because “questioning” is “belittling.” If some stranger can’t understand it … well, that’s too damned bad. Nobody has to justify what they do with their own body.

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#121885 - 05/12/16 11:39 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Deedra Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9712
Loc: United States
I must agree with you, Michael.

Likewise, when a person comes to me wanting hair removed that I deem is not a problem, and I verbalize to them that they are okay.... well ..... I advise then NOT to spend their money on electrolysis.

If they insist that this is what they want, I do what they want. They are free to decide for themselves WHAT they want to do with their body.
_________________________
Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#121886 - 05/13/16 11:51 AM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Still, I will refuse service if I think I would be disfiguring the person … or if I feel they are a bit “off.” I had a 250-pound biker-guy come in with a shaved swastika in his chest; he wanted it zapped so it would be permanent. I didn’t do it. I had a woman come in with her head shaved in radical points. She said she was a witch and wanted this design. I didn’t do it. I have a policy now: “No Nazis, and no witches.” Trolls and fairies, however, are just fine. (I have a couple more example, but these are so extreme nobody would believe it! People can be NUTS! And, most of them are in Congress.)

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#121899 - 05/14/16 12:12 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: RJRogers]
hairh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By RJRogers
Originally Posted By hairy Harry
I don't mean to belittle your hair problem,Hairh, but I can't understand men wanting to get hair reduction (unless you're trans) as far as I can see its not a big-deal for men, it's not repulsive nor a turn - off for most women. wink


Well personally for people like me who have double/triple the hair of a normal man it is very annoying when i go out in public and every single person points out how hairy I am as if I was a freak, I would just like to be able to go out in shorts and feel good with less hair.... that's it. It isn't a gay/bi/trans thing, just a feel good factor.


Exactly. I'm always amused by dudes who are judgemental about hair removal. I would be cool with hair on my body too if I wasn't COVERED in it like I am. I wasn't expecting comments about it on a HAIR REMOVAL forum either lol....

Seems the consensus is that 10 joules is super low so I will bring this up at the next session.


Edited by hairh (05/14/16 12:14 PM)

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#121900 - 05/14/16 12:33 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Deedra Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9712
Loc: United States
I would like to know the parameters of this laser. How high can it go? Numbers mean different things to different machines.
_________________________
Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#121911 - 05/15/16 10:12 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
hairh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 7
Thanks dfahey. I think page 3 of this brochure gives the parameters. If you (or anyone else with input) could take a look id really appreciate it.


https://asp-au.secure-zone.net/v2/index.jsp?id=1096/1218/5420&lng=en

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#121937 - 05/16/16 08:39 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
hairh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/16
Posts: 7
This is what the brochure says:

Small sapphire optic

12mm x 12mm
100Jcm2


large sapphire optic

23mm x 38mm
20Jcm2


Edited by hairh (05/16/16 08:44 PM)

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#121942 - 05/16/16 09:49 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Deedra Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9712
Loc: United States
Any laser experts out there? It looks like the power goes up to 20 joules?
_________________________
Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#121945 - 05/16/16 10:36 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1532
I dont know if we have any practitioners for laser still posting here. There's Brenton of course, but I think he is on the "knowledgeable consumer" side. The last I remember is LA girl, but she hasnt posted since 2013, but used to be a frequent poster here. I'm not sure if she retired, deceased, or got peeved at something and went her own way. But actual laser experts, is something we dont really have any more to my knowledge.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126466 - 05/01/18 08:09 PM Re: Advice on Settings for Laser hair removal [Re: hairh]
Janna Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/18
Posts: 7
I searched the site for "vectus" in posts from the last 5 years and nobody has any experience with it. I just contacted Dr. Hamilton (recommended here) and they have switched from GentleLASE (Alexandrite) to Vectus (Diode). I confirmed they no longer offer GentleLASE treatments.

Vectus stats:
810nm diode laser
12x12mm small tip, 100J/cm^2 max or 23x38mm large tip, 20J/cm^2 max
5-300ms pulse width, repeat up to 3Hz

Google found this study on Vectus vs Lightsheer DUET, both diode lasers. It reads a little like it might have been paid for by Vectus due to their Vectus praising and the fact they have a nice table of stats for Vectus but not for Lightsheer. The Vectus results seem a little too good to be true: 64% reduction 6 months after treatment with 12x12mm spot size at 26J, vs 44% reduction at 29J using LightSheer with 9x9mm spot size.

Elsewhere on Hairtell people say 32J is best for permanent removal, so getting much better results than Lightsheer with 26J sounds suspicious. The study explains it by saying Vectus has better reflection in its tip such that any light that bounces off the skin bounces back into the skin as long as it hits the reflector. The explanation sounds plausible. It's the same reason larger spot size works better than smaller - more light refracts under the surface of the skin. Part of Vectus's effectiveness is the 12x12 spot size vs 9x9 on lightsheer. The study also commented on how well the large 23x38mm tip worked (65% reduction) despite using it at 14J and despite it not causing much redness around hairs. The reasoning for its effectiveness was the same.

Vectus does adjust power level and pulse width based on what it 'sees' on the skin before each pulse. Based on the video posted earlier, you can set a lower or higher baseline power level. I'm not sure if the settings are a minimum, maximum, or average power. I'll have to see if I can find a manual. 10J sounds extremely low.

Someone earlier said machines wouldn't let you use a power setting too low to be effective. Not true. I had a treatment done at Laser Derma Care Center using Cutera Coolglide (ND:Yag laser) which the tech Kelly set to 41J and refused to go higher despite my saying I didn't think it would be effective. I knew from these forums that 50-55 was recommended. Later research shows Cutera's own guidelines say she should have started at 50J for skin type 2 which she said I had.

I should have just left but this was my first experience and this person seemed super nice and had been recommended by a friend. After 5 weeks, only about 20% of hair stopped growing and shed, and only in strips, probably where she overlapped more than in other places. I took before and after photos and aligned them so I could see where every hair matched in a 2x2" section, so I'm sure it wasn't just new hair growing.

Using low settings and coaxing you back for 10-20 treatments is a common tactic amongst clinics. So is being really friendly and seeming trustworthy. One clinic (Fix Laser and Skin Center) claimed I had type 4 skin to justify their crazy low settings. With the right settings, it should take 4-6 treatments. I emailed all this info to two people at Laser Derma Care Center and surprise, I got no response.

I should add that some people may prefer low settings. They're less painful and tend to only show redness for a couple days. Hair is less likely to be killed permanently and may grow back thinner, which some may prefer. When it grows thinner it may be impossible to treat again with laser. If you want permanent removal, don't tolerate low settings.

Anyway, I may give the Vectus a try with Dr. Hamliton since the consultation is free. If they won't do a test spot to prove it's effective at the settings they're willing to use, I won't get treatment.


Edited by Janna (05/01/18 08:25 PM)

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