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#124371 - 07/24/17 06:35 PM hairs break off during treatment
fenix Offline
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Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 451
When I'm treating hairs with galvanic, some hairs tend to break off at the follicle opening when I try to remove it and so the lower part of hair remains with the bulb and sheath in the follicle. My vision aid is pretty good and I'm confident in my insertions accuracy because I can actually see the tip of the needle right at the correct length reaching the hair bulbs.
I don't pull hard on these hairs, and I can't blame it on resistance from lack of proper energy delivery.

Is this something that requires a correction in my technique or do hairs just break off occasionally?


Edited by fenix (07/24/17 06:37 PM)

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#124372 - 07/25/17 06:08 AM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
beate_r Offline

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Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 887
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
Why should You? The hairs would be pushed out by the healing process; they are dead tissue and only need to be removed by us because we would not see the progress otherwise. Please keep in mind that the laser people also leave the hairs they kill in the skin (if they killed any, but so some degree they do...)

I would notify the client, because that might imply a slightly stronger healing reaction.

BTW: it happens with all methods. And it might be an indicator that it is possible to slightly reduce the energy.
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#124373 - 07/25/17 09:57 AM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1061
In Fenix's case I believe fenix is their own client, so I'm certain the client wont complain smile
Are the other hairs sliding out with no resistance? If it's one hair I wouldn't worry about it, one either the hair didn't die ( and will grow out of the follicle in a day or so or alternatively it will shed on its own like a tombstone does if the follicle has been killed. As long as its only one or two hairs, we dont worry about it and we'll get em next time. If you aren't getting smooth extractions from several hairs, its time to re-evaluate your technique and energy levels.

Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (07/25/17 09:59 AM)
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Electrolysis By Seana
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#124377 - 07/25/17 09:47 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
fenix Offline
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Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 451
It's happening more than I want to see it. Since it's scrotal skin, keeping it flat is difficult. I'm not sure if it's related to energy levels because I don't think I'm under treating.
I'm working with 10 tenths/1mA 20 seconds in straight galvanic. Before I with 3 tenths with up to 60 seconds. I don't think my insertions are way off at all, but sometimes I do "lift' a follicle wall a bit with the needle, since it's hard to keep skin flat.


Edited by fenix (07/25/17 09:47 PM)

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#124380 - 07/26/17 12:22 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1061
if it's resisting enough to break the hair when you try and take it out, its not dead yet. I would try venturing beyond pure galvanic to blend.You might also wish to try a "treat and wait" strategy, treat little groups of 5 or so hairs, then another group, then another, When you have dont the third grouping remove the first ones. You'll likely find that they release much better ( with no breakage). Lye is a chemical reaction, therefore not as "instant" as thermolysis aided modalities so letting the lye work ing he follicle for a minute or two will help immensely.

Seana
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Seana Richmond
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Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#124381 - 07/26/17 12:40 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
dfahey Offline

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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9586
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I agree with Seana. When I did multi-needle galvanic, waiting to remove the hair in a few minutes was very helpful. Breakage is bad news.
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Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
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British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

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#124382 - 07/26/17 02:37 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
dimi Offline
Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 48
Loc: Montreal, Canada
fenix,

I understand that your setting is 1mA for 20 sec. This is 200UL.
Hmmm...there is something wrong here.

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#124383 - 07/26/17 05:08 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1061
how is your insertion accuracy on these insertions? Working on yourself, it cant be great. Any possibility you were in the wrong follicle?


Edited by Iluv2zap (07/26/17 05:09 PM)
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Seana Richmond
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Electrolysis By Seana
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#124384 - 07/26/17 07:51 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
fenix Offline
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Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 451
I'm confident in insertion accuracy for the most part because of high magnification. Plus the follicles on scrotal skin are so close to the thin epidermis that I can actually see the hair bulb and the needle reaching it. But there are areas of the scrotum where it's very difficult to guess at which angle the follicle is because the probe can be placed parallel to the skin or at an angle and it feels like the follicle just dances around with the skin.

What I suspect is happening: high galvanic dissolving the hair where it breaks off because the root sheaths are so fat that they resist from passing through the narrower follicle openings?

During the next treatment I will wait and allow the lye to work longer as you advise to see if that helps release them without breaking.

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#124385 - 07/26/17 07:56 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: dimi]
fenix Offline
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Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 451
Originally Posted By dimi
fenix,
I understand that your setting is 1mA for 20 sec. This is 200UL.
Hmmm...there is something wrong here.


I wish I had better literature on single needle/ straight galvanic. But 200UL sounds OMG when I think it's appropriate levels for DC alone. 200UL with Blend would be in the over-treatment zone because AC would be in high levels.

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#124394 - 07/26/17 11:19 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1061
80 units of lye is sufficient for most course hairs, I can see going 100 on some really large or stubborn hairs but 200 sounds like a lot, and I would think most of it would exit the follicle as froth.
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Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#124398 - 07/27/17 05:11 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
dimi Offline
Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 48
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Fenix,
1. 200 UL is over-treatment for me.
2. Use probe with size which match the size of the treated hair.
3. Proposed procedure:
- Reduce the settings to 80 UL.
- Chose the probe with the same size of the hair size.
- Treat 3-4 hairs. If you treat more you can get lost.
- Go back to the first treated hair and insert the probe into the follicle.
- In this position try to remove the hair. A) If the hair slides out easily just remove the hair and zap the naked follicle again for 1-2 sec and go to the fifth hair. B) If you feel some resistance you still remove the hair but make after count for 3-4-5 sec. C) If the hair stay firmly in place assess your insertion and treat again. In this case you can expect overtreatment so remove the hair after treatment anyway.
It will be more difficult and take more time but the goal is to kill the hair. You are DIY so the time is not so critical.

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#124400 - 07/27/17 07:09 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
fenix Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 451
I used to do 80 UL with 60-70 second counts with lower DC settings. Even as DIY, it takes a toll on you as it's labor intensive to sit in a pretzel position. I increased the DC to 1 mA and reduced time to 20 seconds to speed up the lye build up and time it took to clear an area.
I was not concerned about the high DC because I have not been noticing any skin tissue damage or bad healing process.

I will attempt to reduce time and see if I'll still get releases. If releases won't be good, I'll experiment with reducing DC maybe to 5 tenths mA. All this time I have been working with an F3 needle only because insertions are easier.
But perhaps I misread the literature but I thought probe size does not affect DC production but probe size does affect AC pattern.

Thanks for all advice.


Edited by fenix (07/27/17 07:12 PM)

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#124402 - 07/27/17 11:41 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1061
what your looking for is the working point as described in well, just about every electrolysis textbook.
I would maybe look for the medium point between your two intensities and time frames. Reduce your Dc to at least 0.7 MA and adjust your time up accordingly.


Edited by Iluv2zap (07/27/17 11:45 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#124417 - 07/31/17 03:17 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
dimi Offline
Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 48
Loc: Montreal, Canada
The size of the probe DOES matter.
Assuming the same settings:
-Small size probe-less surface-less lye created.
-Bigger size probe-more surface-more lye created.
If you use smaller size probe than the size of the hair, you are treating only one side of the follicle. The lye is concentrated only around the probe. Because is not used AC, the lye is not heated and the tissue is not coagulated. In this case the lye cannot travel fast and stay around the probe. Additionally if the lye stay around the probe the water is depleted which cause decreasing of lye production.
The results of that are:
-Bottom part of the follicle is treated partially
-The top side of the follicle has smaller diameter and it is possible to be over treated (200UL) and the lye partially to dissolve the hair and make it week and break when extracted.
-No overtreatment is observe because not enough lye is produced.
If you use smaller size probe you should use more advance technique such as multiple insertion:
-Use the same setting (80UL)
-Insert the probe into the follicle at 12 a clock and zap it with 40UL (halve time needed for full treatment)
-Remove and insert the probe into the follicle at 6 a clock and zap it with another 40UL.
You can make 3 insertions at 12, 4 and 8 a clock and calculate the time accordingly.

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#124418 - 07/31/17 07:05 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
fenix Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 451
I will work with larger probes as I have up to F5 and I will reduce the DC to below 1mA. Again thanks for this info. Even though I have the text books and read them, it's always helpful to have guides assisting with tips.

I just want to make sure that I am not crazy or having reading comprehension problems when I understood from texts that probe size does not affect overall amount of Lye production in DC. 80UL in probe size 3 produces the same amount of lye as a size 6 using same settings? The larger probe only distributes it in a wider pattern?
I'm referring to link below ( and other texts. )

http://www.balletneedles.com/knowledge-base/knowledge-base-article-1/

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#124429 - 08/02/17 02:18 PM Re: hairs break off during treatment [Re: fenix]
dimi Offline
Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 48
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Fenix, you are not crazy, do not worry.
Theoretically the probe size does not affect overall amount of Lye production in DC.
Theoretically means that we have 2 electrodes and uniform salt water between them.
However, in the follicle I am not sure that this theoretical model fully applies.
Please note, that this is my opinion and I do not pretend to be right.
Anyway, still choosing the proper size of the probe is very important:
“The key factor, and the one I want you to always consider, is the following: always be sure to use the correct diameter needle. This one factor alone is the main determinant in a proper treatment. Fit the needle diameter to the thickness of the hair! Don’t use a needle that is too thin. If you will do this, your treatment will be superb- and, it really doesn’t matter so much what type of needle you use (tapered, non-tapered, gold or stainless)” (Treatment Strategy for Electrology-Michael Bono, page 21)

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