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#124451 - 08/09/17 08:30 AM Another French Medical Plucker
adrien_sanchiz Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
As you all may know, only physicians are allowed to practice electrolysis in France, however there is not electrology practice course available, not at medical university, nor in private school...

The consecuencies :
If you ask electrolysis in a physician office, you may face to an "expert plucker", like this physician doctor in Toulouse :
https://youtu.be/Aoz5S6QN-Mw

Please people, be carefull and whereas in France or another country, ask a demonstration test you can see : you should not see/feel any plucking at all when it is about electrolysis !! If so, hair will grow back.
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124452 - 08/09/17 12:20 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
angelfeather Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/11/17
Posts: 25
omg... it really does look like plucking. Poor girl.

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#124453 - 08/09/17 02:20 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1150
tenting of the skin a a sure give away. I was a little alarmed at how awkward the insertions were.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#124454 - 08/09/17 02:45 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
dimi Offline
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Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 60
Loc: Montreal, Canada
"Expensive expert plucker".....so many mistakes.

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#124455 - 08/09/17 02:52 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
You are right... this is a shame.
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124457 - 08/09/17 07:54 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
fenix Offline
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Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 468
Adrien you should contact him and send him videos of what electrolysis should look like. And doesn't Dectro have training in Europe? Perhaps Medical institutions and dermatology associations in France can be contacted and guided to the problem. Maybe academic types will seek to invite electrologists from abroad to do presentations/education?

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#124458 - 08/09/17 08:13 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
Dear Fenix,
How French doctors will accept our advices in electrology if they think that only themselves (board certified physicians) can perform the technique ?
I already tried to speak with four French dermatologists... it was impossible : there are doctors, I am not, they better know...
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124459 - 08/09/17 09:16 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
fenix Offline
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Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 468
Do they not know AEA or other world associations? Where do they buy their electology equipment? The electrology companies that sell equipment never expose them to be trained?


Edited by fenix (08/09/17 09:16 PM)

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#124460 - 08/09/17 09:33 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1150
the AEA is NOT a world association. IT's specific to the US, thus the AMERICAN Electrolysis Association.Actually I'm not aware of any worldwide electrolysis associations.

I suppose the electrology equipment manufacturers COULD refuse to sell to them,but there would seem to be little incentive to do so.


Edited by Iluv2zap (08/09/17 09:35 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#124463 - 08/10/17 07:51 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
As Seana said, Not AEA, nor the BIAE (the British Institute and Association of Electrology) are world associations.
I already created a French Association but it is very little and since non medical practionners are allowed, it is complicated to promote it.
I am thinking about creating an European Association of Electrology : it could have a partnership with the BIAE for example and other associations in order to do lobbying with French doctors...

The majority of dermatologists use electrocoagulation device (electro bistouri) the same for minor dermatology surgery.


Edited by adrien_sanchiz (08/10/17 07:52 AM)
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124466 - 08/10/17 10:45 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
fenix Offline
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Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 468
Isn't Dectro the world leader in electrology equipment today and aren't they present in many parts of Europe? I think established companies have more power than individuals to make this change.

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#124468 - 08/10/17 11:56 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
Many electrology companies are present in Europe, such as Instantron, Sterex and of course Dectro.
A friend of mine already contacted Dectro about the French issue and they said they can not help. It was 2 years ago. Maybe they will be able to do lobbying nowadays ? Who know.

Established companies may have some power, but it depends on they leader's will.
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124469 - 08/10/17 01:56 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
James W. Walker VII Offline

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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8049
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...


Free market competition would make it so that good work would be both available and would rise to the top of the market. restrictions and controls serve to create a monopoly, protect those who don't deserve it, and in some cases, cause an industry to go extinct.
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#124473 - 08/10/17 03:07 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
I think your last post is blending two different issues, especially with the picture, at least for the European situation. (I do not know exactly how it is in USA). I mean the first issue : licensing some professions and other not, and second issue : the access of them by money.

According to me, licensing a profession means officially recognize and ratify knowledge learned in an official school. Also a licensed profession can be used in order to protect the profession and the citizens who need the service of the first one, at the same time.
For example : a licensed nurse like Dee Fahey or June Adams is a proof of professionalism and security. If everybody could be called "nurse" without going to nurse course, it could be a problem...

First issue, should electrologist be a licensed profession ? Some certified electrologists are plucker and some non certified electrologists work very well... the issue here would be the access to a good electrology education/course with the same quality for all.
(Let me recall that some official course tell to their students that we can not treat telogen hair...)

Other issue : the financial access. In Spain for example the inscription fees to be a certified esthetician are like 2$ in a public school. So here we can not tell that licensing means "the government sells your rights back to you" as the picture you posted says.

The conclusion: I do not think licensing is a problem, so is the access to good education. In France (it was the first issue of the thread) there is no access to electrology course because of the lack of knowledge about it : an electrologist needs to learn his profession and practice a lot, but you do not need to study 10 years of medecine.



Edited by adrien_sanchiz (08/10/17 03:10 PM)
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124478 - 08/11/17 05:48 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
James W. Walker VII Offline

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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8049
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...
Last I heard, the french government decided that the cost of an electrolysis "license" was acquisition of an MD credential. Am I incorrect?
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Setting a goal is not the main thing. It is deciding how you will go about achieving it and staying with that plan. --- Tom Landry
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#124479 - 08/11/17 06:26 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
The real issue is : there is not electrologist license in France since the profession does not exist, there is not electrology course. "Electric hair removal" is considered as a medical procedure using electro-bistouri. The issue is about the lack of knowledge about electrolysis hair removal by French authority : if they truly know what is electrology, first specific electrolysis hair removal course will be available in order to create real profesional electrologists (a physician could be electrologist if them want but the course will be available for non-physicians).
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124481 - 08/11/17 07:20 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
James W. Walker VII Offline

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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8049
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...
What you are missing is that there was once a vibrant electrolysis industry in France. I visited back when they started the process of what some would call "Denial of service attacks". Those who knew how to do the work were first bullied to "partner with doctors" and later to chose between being forced to go underground, or simply go out of business.
“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence,—it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant, and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.” - George Washington
_________________________
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Setting a goal is not the main thing. It is deciding how you will go about achieving it and staying with that plan. --- Tom Landry
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#124482 - 08/11/17 08:19 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1150
*FETCHES POPCORN*
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#124483 - 08/11/17 11:50 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: James W. Walker VII]
dfahey Offline

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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9611
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Originally Posted By James W. Walker VII

“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence,—it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant, and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.” - George Washington


You need a George Washington in France, Adrien, to fight a Revolutionary War so the hairy in France can be served well. Most of the world's amazing advances and discoveries, that greatly enhance people's lives are not being created by government, but by individual's who are free to imagine, invent and then be rewarded. France is better than this and can become what it once was in regard to non-physicians performing electrolysis.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#124484 - 08/12/17 10:03 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
Michael Bono Online

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3182
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
The Washington quote is a good one, except he didn’t say it. Quotes attributed to famous people have been “invented” for years … and, with the internet accelerated to stunning heights. France already has their advocate: Adrian.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/05/26/fire-servant/

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#124485 - 08/12/17 11:36 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
dfahey Offline

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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9611
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
We may really never know what words were said for many American Patriots. Nathan Hale (a Washington spy after New York was taken over by the British) supposedly said before he was hanged that he regretted having one life to give for his country. It is reported as his quote, but some think it was lifted from Cato's play (1712) ? Nathan Hale was a teacher, so he probably was well read and perhaps he did say that or something very similar. Nevertheless, words of history are not an exact science and when they are reported by more than one source, over a period of time, who knows what a famous person really said.

I was gently hinting that Adrien should lead the charge in France to change such an illogical system. Are you thinking about becoming involved in challenging this, Adrien?

I'm in LOVE with the Washington Spies series : TURN! Last episode of the season is tonight. Those spies (The Culper Ring - Abraham Woodhull, a cabbage farmer, and friends) were very creative, not to mention BRAVE. The colonial women played a huge part in defeating King George III. In fact, the war could not have been won without these WOMEN.

https://www.amazon.com/Washingtons-Spies...ASIN=0553383299
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#124487 - 08/12/17 01:01 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: James W. Walker VII]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
Originally Posted By James W. Walker VII
What you are missing is that there was once a vibrant electrolysis industry in France. I visited back when they started the process of what some would call "Denial of service attacks". Those who knew how to do the work were first bullied to "partner with doctors" and later to chose between being forced to go underground, or simply go out of business.


Please, what vibrant industry are you referring to ? Are you talking about the work of Dr. Louis Brocq at the end of the 19 century ?
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124505 - 08/13/17 12:53 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
Michael Bono Online

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3182
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
My first classes in the Netherlands were in 1980. I was very involved with the industry in Europe. A couple French people took my classes; one was a physician. The nonsense in France today is exactly the same as it was in 1980. The "vibrant French industry" was primarily in Belgium.

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#124507 - 08/13/17 01:31 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
James W. Walker VII Offline

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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8049
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...
Originally Posted By adrien_sanchiz
Please, what vibrant industry are you referring to ? Are you talking about the work of Dr. Louis Brocq at the end of the 19 century ?


All I can say is that when I was in France (and not just Paris) in the 80's and 90's french people had enough practitioners to act like Americans and either take their time to choose one based on the varying criteria the prospective customer chose to set as his or her standard, or be like Americans who picked based on who was most convenient to their work or home. In the New Millennium, it's all you take what we give you, and be glad we give you anything... unless you know the secret knock, handshake and the password and have Grandma Sophie-Clair's friend from the casino vouch for you with a personal reference when the ladies do lunch. wink
Alternatively, you can get some books, read hairtell, watch YouTube videos and you and a partner can learn Do Each Other electrolysis. (you know, using an onion soaked in sports drink with wires attatched to sewing needle on one end, and a sponge on the other because you can't seem to buy a pro machine )
Reminds me of a little commercial tangential to our subject. If you are lucky, the lords of the internet will allow you to click on this link and actually see it. wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CaMUfxVJVQ


Edited by James W. Walker VII (08/13/17 01:36 PM)
_________________________
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Setting a goal is not the main thing. It is deciding how you will go about achieving it and staying with that plan. --- Tom Landry
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#124512 - 08/13/17 09:21 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9611
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Oh dear. I seem to say that a lot lately. Maybe I'll switch it up and say something more intellectual like, "Oh, Nelly".

_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#124513 - 08/13/17 11:02 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: James W. Walker VII]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1150
Originally Posted By James W. Walker VII

Alternatively, you can get some books, read hairtell, watch YouTube videos and you and a partner can learn Do Each Other electrolysis. (you know, using an onion soaked in sports drink with wires attatched to sewing needle on one end, and a sponge on the other because you can't seem to buy a pro machine )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CaMUfxVJVQ


Ok, I admit it, I genuinely giggled. Too close to the truth!
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#124514 - 08/14/17 07:00 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: Michael Bono]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
The Washington quote is a good one, except he didn’t say it. Quotes attributed to famous people have been “invented” for years … and, with the internet accelerated to stunning heights. France already has their advocate: Adrian.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/05/26/fire-servant/


Thank you for this very interesting link Michael.
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124515 - 08/14/17 07:18 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: dfahey]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
Originally Posted By dfahey


I was gently hinting that Adrien should lead the charge in France to change such an illogical system. Are you thinking about becoming involved in challenging this, Adrien?


I am already involved in challenging this Dee. Each time I go back to France, I try to speak about electrolysis with a different physician : in vain.
I could try again, until meeting the good one.

James : it is a shame we can not anything about this electrolysis French industry of the 80"/90" on the literature or on the internet. All I could find is about old testimonies of transgender women with destroyed skin by bad electrolysis procedures during the 90" (I don't remember the exact name of the forum but I could find it) : it could explain why physicians dislike this technique (as French dermatologist Dr. Labroca said me : "you have to be mad if you want to have electrolysis done on your face!")


Edited by adrien_sanchiz (08/14/17 07:20 AM)
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124517 - 08/14/17 02:54 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
James W. Walker VII Offline

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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8049
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...
If transgender women complaining about destroyed skin equals something other than a vibrant industry, then the United states can only boast of having higher levels of access to what ever treatment possibilities are available.
Of course, since the problem is both access to both service and education, you have to ask yourself, who is teaching the doctors.
_________________________
http://www.executiveclearance.com/beforeandafter.html
Setting a goal is not the main thing. It is deciding how you will go about achieving it and staying with that plan. --- Tom Landry
Has this site helped you? Pay it forward. Donate to keep HairTell & Hairfacts Online at http://www.hairfacts.com/feedback/support-this-site/

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#124519 - 08/14/17 05:42 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
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Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
Well, I am not sure United States can boast of having a higher livel of access to good health care system than the rest of occidental countries though. However the last president tried to improve it. (However We will not begin a political discussion here please)

Electrology course is not only available in USA : only France does not have it. In the rest of the European Union, as in UK or Spain for example we have it.


Edited by adrien_sanchiz (08/14/17 05:46 PM)
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124522 - 08/14/17 08:32 PM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
dfahey Offline

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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9611
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I'm really surprised that the great politicians and medical community of France are so illogical and so closed-minded about educating non-physicians to perform electrolysis, so the PEOPLE can have access to excellent electrolysis care. There are lot of hairy people in France. Free market principles would serve the people of France very well and the all wise, all powerful (government) could collect more taxes with more people working. Who could be happier? It's a win-win situation.

Why does electrolysis and electrolysis education thrive in the UK?



_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#124523 - 08/15/17 05:27 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: James W. Walker VII]
beate_r Offline

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Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 894
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
Originally Posted By James W. Walker VII
...
Of course, since the problem is both access to both service and education, you have to ask yourself, who is teaching the doctors.


Nobody. Well, a few send their employees to a training, but others are seeking Employees with the note "it is easy to learn".

(That's why the majority of the clients seem to give up after an initial training...)
_________________________
Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#124524 - 08/15/17 07:53 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 293
Loc: France, Spain
Dee and Beate, you both are right. The current system in France is illogical.
No one in teaching electrology because they do not know what it really is : electrolysis hair removal is not putting a needle in the skin and sendind current from a electric bistouri device !!

An access to education to non-physician will be the key for a "win-win situation" as Dee said.
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#124525 - 08/15/17 08:59 AM Re: Another French Medical Plucker [Re: adrien_sanchiz]
James W. Walker VII Offline

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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8049
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...
Businesses can't make money teaching electrolysis because there is no profit in meeting regulatory requirements and holding classes for the few people who will show up, at the prices they are willing to pay for learning the profession. On the other hand, even if the best people taught the best techniques to anyone who came to learn for free, or for donations, there would be no legal certification credentials at the end of the training, just competency in performing the work, because this second model has bypassed expensive legal hurdles and regulatory controls.

Let's put it this way, both an ASE Certified Mechanic and a so-called "shade tree mechanic" change the oil in a car the same way, they turn one bolt, let the oil drain into a container, replace the bolt, replace the filter and pour in fresh oil. Your car can't tell the difference. If, however, you can only get oil changes from "Certified Mechanics" or if that program has been ended and only Mechanical Engineers are allowed to change oil in your area, you may need to drive 200 to 500 miles away to find the nearest person advertising that they are doing oil changes.
_________________________
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