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#125376 - 12/09/17 11:17 AM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Roselake21]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3220
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Dear Roselake,

Your comments are uncanny ... almost like you are "inside my head." I wonder: who are you? Let me add to your comments.

There is an often quoted statement that "all clients are different," with the assumption that, therefore, absolutely no prediction is possible. For the most part, this is nonsense. There are not that many areas on the body that have hair, and ... if the electrologist takes careful notes ... patterns will be obvious.

The client should ask what the averages are for her/his specific area of concern. These averages are NOT based on anything other than the therapist's own personal numbers ONLY! Not anybody else's numbers ... just the electrologist's! The expert can determine if the specific patient has more than the average ... or less than. Then some general TTT figure can be given to the client. General ... but ... "ballpark!"

Consideration MUST be given to age and to hormone imbalances. However, these data can be factored in. And, if no general estimate can be made, there should be reasons why such an estimate is not possible. (Indeed, sometimes you cannot make an estimate.)

For example, if an 18-year-old man is starting to grow hair on his back there is no way to predict what will eventually grow in (some idea by examining the "shooters"). A woman with PCOS, in the early stages? Same deal: no way to predict the eventual outcome. However, this is not the case for such areas as the underarms, bikini area, legs, and a man's back that is fully grown in.

Electrologists and laser therapists should at least make some sort of effort to put a number on what the client is expecting. Strangely, nearly all clients NEVER ask such specific questions. "Lambs to the slaughter!" Now, as far as Hairtell becoming a show-place for before & after photos?

That's not happening. There are less than a hand-full of electrologists who post on this site; and only a scant few will showcase their work, or offer real numbers. Hairtell is a cacophony of non-specific information. Posters on this site are primarily "freaked-out" neurotic patients with imaginary post-treat boo-boos. It's tiresome to be answering the same questions (with stridently unaccepted answers) hundreds of times. Except for a few die-hards, most of us have given up on this hopeless endeavor.

Make a new venue and I will "share!" Still, you will only be seeing photos from Dee Dee, Seana, Josefa and me.

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#125377 - 12/09/17 01:07 PM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Roselake21]
fenix Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 472
Going back to 3 clearance strategy, it's unrealistic to expect it from the overwhelming majority in electrology industry around the world. Most can't deliver results in 3 clearances and dismissing their capabilities will only leave confused and frustrated clients with hairy struggles.
What's better chasing 3 clearance electrologists and not finding them or settling for your local electrologists who will give you hair free results in 18-24 month through monthly clearances?

The 3 clearance strategy topic was only touched on surface. No electrology school teaches it and no one has released a comprehensive educational material on how to perform it successfully. We know that this strategy requires pain management by injection as treatment currents needed to guarantee high kill rates with each treatment are not the standard currents all electrologists are taught to operate with when they train to operate their units of different brands. Most don't have access to work with licensed medical professionals who can do pain management injections.

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#125378 - 12/09/17 01:48 PM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Roselake21]
Roselake21 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 03/02/17
Posts: 36
Hello Michael,

It is very interesting to hear more about the differents factors that can change the outcome of a treatment.

As you are the one who did a lot for electrolysis since many years. I take it as a compliment. I'm a customer who undertook how electrolysis worked and want to help others to avoid the same mistakes that I made.

I appreciate your appreciation.

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#125379 - 12/09/17 01:55 PM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: fenix]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 36
Originally Posted By fenix
Going back to 3 clearance strategy, it's unrealistic to expect it from the overwhelming majority in electrology industry around the world. Most can't deliver results in 3 clearances and dismissing their capabilities will only leave confused and frustrated clients with hairy struggles.
What's better chasing 3 clearance electrologists and not finding them or settling for your local electrologists who will give you hair free results in 18-24 month through monthly clearances?

The 3 clearance strategy topic was only touched on surface. No electrology school teaches it and no one has released a comprehensive educational material on how to perform it successfully. We know that this strategy requires pain management by injection as treatment currents needed to guarantee high kill rates with each treatment are not the standard currents all electrologists are taught to operate with when they train to operate their units of different brands. Most don't have access to work with licensed medical professionals who can do pain management injections.



The high kill rate has nothing to do with the infiltration of local anesthesia. I could show you dozens of cases in which no anesthetic was necessary, and the result is exactly the same.

This strategy requires ONLY that the practitioner make precise insertions, and apply sufficient current in order not to force a SINGLE hair.

You are right about one thing, some electrolysis schools are teaching how to do TWEEZING, when they should strive to teach you how to do permanent hair removal.

The 3 clearances strategy has been explained and illustrated a hundred times in public and in private, Fenix. I do not know why the schools refuse to include it in their teaching program. Perhaps because it contradicts what they have been defending for decades, the stupid theory that telogen hairs can not be destroyed.
However, I will tell you that to apply this strategy, you do not need to do a master's degree in electrology. You just have to understand the meaning of two verbs, "clear" and "wait". Exactly, the terms used by Michael to name this strategy.



Edited by Josefa M. Reina (12/09/17 02:57 PM)
Edit Reason: add thoughts

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#125380 - 12/09/17 07:17 PM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 36
The good news is that more and more electrologists are betting on this strategy and checking that their kill rate is much higher than they thought.
A change that will directly benefit customers around the world.

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#125381 - 12/10/17 05:58 AM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Roselake21]
Roselake21 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 03/02/17
Posts: 36
Fenix, I'd like to answer to this sentence. "What's better chasing 3 clearance electrologists and not finding them or settling for your local electrologists who will give you hair free results in 18-24 month through monthly clearances?"

Do you know that if, what you call "your local electrologist" is not killing properly hair, you won't be able to be hair free in 18-24 month. If you suggest that customers have to go monthly to epilate a bunch of improperly treated hair, "true regrowth" do you know that the cost will be very high for this customers.

Requiring professionals who don't pluck and treat effectively the majority of the hairs they epilate it's common sense.

Being defeatist and paying for a service where you can end up paying twice the price you should have payed because the practionner do not master how to kill hair the faite time is not what we need to make things evolve in a better way.



Edited by Roselake21 (12/10/17 06:00 AM)

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#125382 - 12/10/17 08:04 AM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Roselake21]
angelfeather Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/11/17
Posts: 25
Originally Posted By Roselake21
Fenix, I'd like to answer to this sentence. "What's better chasing 3 clearance electrologists and not finding them or settling for your local electrologists who will give you hair free results in 18-24 month through monthly clearances?"

Do you know that if, what you call "your local electrologist" is not killing properly hair, you won't be able to be hair free in 18-24 month. If you suggest that customers have to go monthly to epilate a bunch of improperly treated hair, "true regrowth" do you know that the cost will be very high for this customers.

Requiring professionals who don't pluck and treat effectively the majority of the hairs they epilate it's common sense.

Being defeatist and paying for a service where you can end up paying twice the price you should have payed because the practionner do not master how to kill hair the faite time is not what we need to make things evolve in a better way.



I'm sorry, but fenix is right. If your whole country only has a bunch of electrologists, that have never even heard of this method, what is a person supposed to do? Travel elsewhere to do it? Do you think that will be less costly?

My electrologist might not be a genius and she might not have an all kill rate. But she does the job effectively and I will be done before 2 years. Sometimes you get what you can because there's no other option. In the end, it's far more better to get an electrologist who's mediocre than do laser, especially on the face which is my concern.

I'm sorry if I come off as argumentative, but I've been seeing all these posts the past few days, practically shitting on your normal electrologist, and I just wanted to point out that it's not always possible to find a certified amazing one, according to your standards ofc.

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#125383 - 12/10/17 09:43 AM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: angelfeather]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 36
I think nobody is questioning whether people should travel or not. Quite the opposite, what I understand Roselake means is that BEFORE traveling, you should make sure it's worth it.

Roselake is giving good advice. To demand real proofs about the effectiveness of the practitioner in whom you are going to invest your time and your money does not mean to disqualify anyone, except those who charge for "plucking" what should be electrolysis.

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#125386 - 12/10/17 12:53 PM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Roselake21]
Roselake21 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 03/02/17
Posts: 36
I don't disrespect anyone by explaining facts. If some professionals are plucking hairs and call what they do "electrolysis" it is our role ( professionals who do proper electrolysis with high kill rate amd customers who experienced proper treatments) to explaIn that this not something impossible to destroy permanently a hair. It require skill and work but it is acheviable.

There are electrologists who work like the school teach them, they do not want to hear people like Michael and his "clear and wait strategy."

There are electrologists who understood that they can work the way Michael Bono discribted in his books amd killing a telogen hair is not something impossible!
There are maybe, and I hope! many good professionals like this!
But applying this strategy is not all you have to do to bring customers in the goal they want. You have to apply enough current and don't be afraid to make big scabs with a precise insertion. If you feel a little resistance, adjust the settings...





Josefa, I agree. Thank you. before traveling you need to make sure it is worth it and even if you are not traveling and stay in your city you need to be sure the practionner is doing a good job.

I think it is much more interessant to speak the true about electrolysis, maybe giving advices to help another professional who want to improve his/her kill rate if you are a pro. And explaining how to avoid loosing time and money, than talking all the time about the SAME THINGS "Apilus junior or apilus senior? Is instantron worth it ? Their website is not new generation so can we trust them? Of course you can trust people of instantron by the way.
I'm scarred I will be left with hyperpigmentation. Is it best to apply aloe vera or tea tree oil? The smell of tea tree is very strong so i kinda prefer aloe but I'm wondering if it is good for my skin as it leave a dry coating...........
People with common sens are done with this questions on this forum.

I mean, you can ask questions like this but the main problem is this that is like a scratched disk. In another forums, there are stricts rules and when someone ask a question to a problem that has been resolve, people on the forums tell him to search on the FAQ or to manually search. We can be kind and give the link to this people too.


Saying facts should not be a problem. It can be a problem for the ones who don't care about their customers and find excuses for not killing hairs. For those people I can understand that saying publicly what electrolysis really is, disturb them.
I




Edited by Roselake21 (12/10/17 02:49 PM)

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#125390 - 12/10/17 07:20 PM Re: Advice for customers. [Re: Roselake21]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1187
ok Ill admit it I've been avoiding this ( and all of roselake's threads) for a while now. I guess it's because it was generally a LOT of reading, something I havent had quite enough time for recently but also because , despite my feelings these series of post represent a bt of "one Twue Way" ism I wasnt seeing anything I immediately objected to.Now I do.

Hairtell is notoriously poorly designed and so searching for information asked in the past, is a virtual impossibility. So saying " we're done with these questions go searchthe FAQ" just doesnt work here. And it's the opposite of the general purpose of this forum. Can some of the questions be repetitive? Absolutely, and you arent the first to say this. But in absence of an easy way to reference such materials, we do NOT want to discourage consumers from asking about their treatment concerns.

I have a lot of respect for the work of people like Josepha, Michael, Beate, Dee, Arlene, Emancipated Elect. But the style of working of each electrologist is chosen, because that is what works for them. While I agree there are shortcomings in electrolysis education, this does NOT mean that good qualified electrologists who are really killing hair, arent graduating from them. In fact,my experience is the opposite.

I have several clients who travel some great distances to see me ( some from the west coast even) . I dont treat any of them with a clear and wait strategy. Generally we plan our treatments around the client tolerance, and the desired effect ( usually starting with a thinning approach for large areas) .I definitely kill hair.And so do a lot of other fine electrologists who managed to continue their education beyond the basics of electrolysis school.

Over the years I've seen a lot of posters here tray...and fail, to tout that this method or that is the best and so thats what everyone should be using. Well the truth is, there is no "One Best Way" and to say that electrologists who dont follow this one method de jour arent killing hair, is a diservice to the profession in general.


Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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