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#125943 - 03/03/18 10:38 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
Well first of all, I dont compare myself to Michael or Jojepha. Or Dee, or Beate, or emancipated elect, or any of the other professionals here that I learned from . It's not that I dont have faith in my work, but yes to a certain degree every electrologist is different . I think it's a a respect thing? I do me.
Every electrologist, uses a different strategy. I use a thinning approach generally and rotate areas until it is possible to clear the entire face in a single session. I consider this point my "first clearance" and I have never had it take me more than 30 or so hours except in a single case ( the one I described to you previously) .

Your electrologist seems to be using a different strategy, called the clear and advance strategy. It's as you decribed you clear an area, and then reclear it and advance into new untreated areas each visit. One isnt right and the other wrong, they are different ways to get there.

That said, lets draw some comparisons, because, I feel, 37 hours is too long to be clearing one cheek. As a matter of fact, lets do some financial math.
$1500 US, is approximately $1930 CAD, so lets call it $2000 ( nice round number). What have you gotten, versus what you would have recieved for the same money with me, Michael, or Dee. I charge $90 an hour CAD ( just put it up $5 yesterday) and $410 for a 5 hour package. So in my clinic, you could get 25 hours of electrolysis for about the same amount of money.So what is the difference in results?

The cheek, is one of the easiest and fastest progressing areas on the face to proceed. Compared to the chin and neck this is honestly not a whole lot of work. If I can finish a case in 100 hours ( and I can) then $8000 is enough to give that 100 hours needed.The area that we would spend the MOST time on? the chin, and neck. These by far are the densest number of follicles on the human body.



Recently, I started a pre-hrt transgirl with minimal growth. She had a LOT less hair than you, but I gained first clearance in about 5 hours. The entire face. Really! You've had Michael here saying he rarely exceeds 85 hours on a beard case, which is pretty consistent with my results or anyone elses.

So the question is, do you have faith, that repeating and doing another 37 hours to the other cheek, leaving just 11 hours total treatment time left to do the chin and face, is going to be efficient enough to complete the job? I dont believe so.Looking at the progress thus far in the number of hours so far, I feel it will average 150 or more hours for this eectrologist to complete the job.

Remember when I said, if it's taking more than 100 hours something is wrong? I consider myself a pretty fast and efficient electrologist. There is one case however I took more than 100 hours for a beard case. It was mine. I never recorded the numbers, but I do have a good feel for how much treatmentI was doing and it was somewhere in the 150-200 hour range.Why? Because I was a rank amatuer at the time and working on myself and slow. The treatment was inefficient. Your electrologist seems to be, going about the same pace as my DIY job. She does however seem to be doing very good work, but I highly doubt she will be able to finish the case in as many hours.My treatment was COST effective because I dont charge myself. It wasnt time effective.

Now, all of this is, comparing apples and oranges. Your electrologist IS making progress. My efficientcy will not be the same as Michaels, or Dee's or Josepha's. We are all different. We have different skilsets, and different efficiencies.

So does all this mean your electrologists treatment is bad? NO! If you are looking at it on a pure cost/effectiveness perspective, actually, she's doing ok. Will it take more than 100 hours to finish the job? Most certainly. Will she bring in the finished product at less than $9000 total cost? Well you got 37 hours of electrolysis for $2000 CAD and if we extrapolate that would mean you could get roughly 160 hours for around the same cost as 100 hours in my clinic. Can she finish the job in 160 hours? I think so, or pretty close. So on a pure cost/effectiveness ratio calculation, your electrologist is actually doing alright. It WILL take longer number of treatment hours for her to get there, but her reduced price per hour, is what makes it cost effective. Is it treatment time effective? Not so much, but you are going to get there either way.

It comes down to this. Michael has been fond of saying "what is the TOTAL TREATMENT TIME that is what is the total time, to complete the job, start to finish. Now what is the financial cost of that treatment time. If we are comparing apples and oranges to determine cost effectiveness, your electrologist is doing alright , her cost/ percentage of the total treatment time, is actually about the same as my own, or Michaels , or anyone elses. IT might take her longer to get there, but the cost/effectiveness calculation is approximately equal.

Seana



Edited by Iluv2zap (03/03/18 11:27 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125945 - 03/03/18 11:53 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
First of all thank you so much for taking the time to write long answers, I really appreciate it!

That basically confirms or answers everything I was obsessing over, lol!

The only thing now would be to ask her to not do weekly sessions as this truly destroys my motivation, I'd much rather do several hours in one or a few days every 1-2 month than go in 1h every week! Which I know she won't like but, in the end, it won't really matter since the results will hopefully be the same.


Edited by zapmyface (03/03/18 11:55 AM)

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#125946 - 03/03/18 12:08 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Great Job Seana.

Indeed, the results will be the same "IF" she doesn't get frightened and under-treat the hairs.

My own perception is that your results will be better by not going weekly.

Here's the deal: a very new returning anagen hair is not fully keratinized and thus not hardened in the follicle ... actually to the outer root sheath. In this way, an "easy epilation" often means that the therapist removed the hair with little or no traction ... think "plucked it out" ... and assumed the hair was fully and properly treated. Lots of times IT'S NOT!

Although I have never done the experimentation (and never will) I think dispatching telogen hairs can result in a BETTER kill rate! ... You, "zapmyface," can probably figure this out yourself ... you have a great analytical mind. Think "getting ALL the stem cells wherever they might be" and a clean release.

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#125947 - 03/03/18 12:35 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
My guess would be to figure out what the length of time a male beard hair cycle is and go when there's the maximum amount of telogen hairs present. I believe that's what you're doing on the body, right?

However I'm fairly certain that the hair on the face has a much shorter cycle, and I remember having seen a few numbers here and there about it, but for the life of me I can't seem to be able to find them anymore!

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#125948 - 03/03/18 06:23 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
Well that's because the numbers are more or less theoretical. Everyones opinions differ and for us its very difficult to get an accurate count of the number of telogen hairs. We can reduce them and force the hairs into anogen through plucking ( please dont test this) but there isnt really any way to force the hairs on the face into telogen to have more of them.

I agree with Michael on your analytical mind. Have you ever considered trying electrolysis on your own? You seem to have a grasp on some of the concepts.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125949 - 03/03/18 07:33 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I would love to try it on my own! Actually I'd much prefer to do so now that I think about it... I'd just have two tiny questions before I start my research on that...

Do I need a big investment for the machine?

Doesn't it require some acrobatic movements for doing it on your own face?

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#125950 - 03/03/18 08:27 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
Machine prices vary on where you are and availability. I tend towards Apilus machines for learning and I happen to live in Ontario and there is a glut of used machines for sale in uebec right next to me. Some american folks have had luck finding them on craigslist, or ebay. Thing is if you are going to try on yourself I highly recommend blend.And it doesnt take the newest fanciest machine to do a blend treatment and there are tons of machines on the used market available on the used market for anywhere from $100-$1000 that arent suitable for use in a clinic, but would be just fine for a used machine for DIY. Dont turn your nose down at a silouette tone or a clairbend or fisher schientific that looks like it was made in the 70's with old stereo components. Often these bargains can be had on the cheap and work just fine.So answer to the first question is no.

The Answer to the second question is YES! Having done the majority of the electrolysis on my own face, it is a challenge to see some places ( especially the neck while having reversed movements in a magnifying mirror. It is often hard to judge and requires excellent hand to eye coordination.

If you do decide to do a DIY, know that it is a difficult path and for some places, you will want an electrologists help anyway. But theres zero reason you cant manage an insertion yourself with correct guideance.

An excellent source on Blend electrolysis, is Michael Bono's book, The Blend Method. IT's available from Texas Electrolysis Supply who will happily ship it to you by mail, I think it's $42 if I'm not mistaken but I dont remember.
I dont recommend strait thermolysis for DIY on the face. I believe the levels of thermolysis too high and the potential to cut skin with inaccurate insertions inhertent to DIY make it not worth the risk at least for first electrolysis. But blend is an easy to learn modality with a high kill rate and does not use such high levels of thermolysis . Will it take you a while to learn how to do it? Yup. But, the author of the book, is following your thread. You might however consider doing your own, lip and chin. These are the easiest areas to DIY and you have an opportunity, to treat and kill all hair, not just anogen or early anogen. They all die! Let your electrologist, finish up the neck where it will be more difficult for you to see.

I'm one if not the best known DIYer around here. Its how I began. Since that I've time I've inspired at least 3 other transpeople to take up the practise and become electrologists themselves. I dont think I'm done yet.

Seana



Edited by Iluv2zap (03/03/18 08:34 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125951 - 03/03/18 08:56 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Very interesting. I live in Montreal so that's good news!

I wanna do much more than my entire face so doing everything myself would probably be more beneficial in the long run. Also I do love to test things, so I'll have a lot of fun before touching my face with it lol.

I mean if it really is that simple in the sense that it only requires a X00$ machine and a learning curve, I will 100% do it. I'm honestly more concerned about finding the actual machine, probes, lights?, microscope?, and all those small details than the actual task if that makes sense.

Is it weird that I'm already eager and excited? I have issues...

Funny story about blend (or galvanic), all the electrologists I've talked to in person warned me about how it could cause scars. Oh the irony... since my scars were caused by thermolysis! (not that I blame the method but still quite ironic)

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#125952 - 03/03/18 09:17 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
You're an hour an a half down the road from me in Ottawa and I can tell you montreal has some great electrologists and lots of them . Look for Dimi from this site.. Montreal kijiji is littered with used silouette tones and Apilus Machines. For electrolysis equipment and accessible knowledge you madam are sitting in shangrala.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125953 - 03/03/18 09:23 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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