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#125870 - 02/24/18 08:00 PM What does influence the kill rate?
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I've had over 30 full clearings (over 30 weeks) in some areas of my face, and noticed that some worked more than others. For example, the neck beard area worked quite well, unlike my sideburns... Both with about the same amount of clearings and always treating new hairs every week. The only difference I can think of between those 2 areas would be a greater amount of very pale hairs on the sideburns (almost transparent, unlike my overall beard which has mostly darker blond hairs).

First assumption: I don't think it's about phases of the hair, since they all were starting the anagen phase, except on the first clearing.

Second assumption: I don't think ''hidden hairs'' appeared after 30 weeks, that's almost 8 months on the face.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in those.

So what else could potentially influence the kill rate? (few ideas in mind: electrologist positioning, hair dept, hair colour?)

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#125877 - 02/25/18 07:38 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 74
Originally Posted By zapmyface


Second assumption: I don't think ''hidden hairs'' appeared after 30 weeks, that's almost 8 months on the face.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in those.


After 8 months, it is possible that between 5-10% of the hairs can still appear, even if your electrologist's kill rate has been 99% throughout the process.

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#125878 - 02/25/18 07:44 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 74
Originally Posted By zapmyface


So what else could potentially influence the kill rate? (few ideas in mind: electrologist positioning, hair dept, hair colour?)



Electrologist positioning. This aspect only affects the speed of execution. If the client's position is not ideal, the practitioner will have more difficulty making quick insertions. Such a thing will slow down the procedure, but should not influence the % kill rate.

Depth of hair is directly related to the size and caliber of the hair, and therefore with the size of the target to be destroyed. A terminal hair requires a deeper and wider lesion than a fine or intermediate hair. The % kill rate should be the same.

Hair colour. The absence or presence of melanin is an irrelevant factor in the % kill rate.

The % kill rate is conditioned only to these two factors: A) The perfect coordinates to enter with the needle, and B) An intuitive application of current in the heart or brain of the follicle.

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#125880 - 02/25/18 08:42 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I see, thank you for your answers.

Unrelated question regarding size of hair, does repetitive electro somehow shrinks the diameter of the hair? Or is that just the new feeling of having less (or none) hair around it so it feels ''weaker'' to the touch?

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#125884 - 02/25/18 11:12 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 74
The speed with which a hair grows, as well as the duration of its growth stage is directly related to its size. Thus, in male beard, once its development is complete, it is formed by terminal hair with an average of 80% thick hairs in anagen phase (growth) and a small percentage in telogen phase, and although we do not appreciate them there is also a small percentage of thinner hairs.

If your electrologist is working on a beard that has been shaved a few days before the beggining of treatment, she or he will be able to work only on thick hairs that are in active phase (growth phase or anagen). One or two weeks later, the operation will be repeated in another handful of hairs in active phase. And so on. As each handful of new hairs is treated and eliminated, new hairs with a smaller caliber will appear (since the caliber of these hairs is smaller, they need more time to appear on the scene). This phenomenon is what makes many consumers and electrologists believe that it is regrowth of the same hairs that have lost thickness.

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#125893 - 02/25/18 09:59 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Is it harder for an electrologist to figure out the hair phase and act accordingly with the needle than having all the hairs in anagen phase?

Would that be a reason why some (or most) electrologist are obsessed with anagen hairs that just pierced the skin? That also could explain why some wax or pluck the hair first so it's easier to have them all at the same... depth?

Again, I love assuming, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

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#125894 - 02/26/18 07:42 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Is it harder for an electrologist to figure out the hair phase and act accordingly with the needle than having all the hairs in anagen phase?

Would that be a reason why some (or most) electrologist are obsessed with anagen hairs that just pierced the skin? That also could explain why some wax or pluck the hair first so it's easier to have them all at the same... depth?

Again, I love assuming, so please correct me if I'm wrong.


There has been a persisting myth that only follicles in the anagen phase can be 'killed' because of a misunderstanding of the anatomy of the hair follicle and where/how the damage needs to occur. To the extent that this is what has been officially taught.

When I started visiting Josefa and Michael was not yet posting on HairTell, no one (as far as memory serves) believed that telogen hairs could be treated effectively and therefore doubted her clearance results. Things are slowly changing. I do wonder what the BIAE in the UK promote now in regards to this.

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#125896 - 02/26/18 10:01 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I mostly do body hair (in 3 clearances + a couple short "follow-ups"). I RELY on telogen hairs and will not start a treatment until I see LOTS of telogen hairs (in this way, I know we have the maximum amount of hairs to be treated).

The key error is in thinking that the papilla "grows the hair" when, actually, it's the stem cells that are relatively high in the skin. We should have learned a lot from those doing hair transplants ... but nobody has looked at the evidence.

(I did hair transplants with Dr. Perkins ... stunning revelations!)

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#125897 - 02/26/18 10:57 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Wow, that is truly interesting!

So, according to a quick internet research, the stem cells are located in some kind of bulge along the hair between the epidermis and papilla. Or maybe they're located all around the hair and not only in that ''bulge''? I'm not too sure.

In the telogen phase, that bulge ends up being very close to the papilla (and the skin's surface).

http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2021782079/2041687861/fx1.jpg
http://dev.biologists.org/content/develop/135/6/1059/F1.large.jpg
http://chemistscorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/hair-stem-cells.png

At least one of the electrologists that I've seen targeted the papilla, as she specifically said that my hair was ''deeper than anything she's seen to get to the bulb''.

I'm assuming that method still works relatively well, since a few hairs never came back, but maybe at a lower kill rate? The heat probably ends up destroying the stem cells too, or maybe that second zap (double zap method) ends up being near the stem cells after they target the papilla?

I wish you could do that 3 clearance method on the face though, wouldn't that be amazing?!


Edited by zapmyface (02/26/18 10:59 AM)

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#125903 - 02/26/18 12:37 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
The stem cells are located primarily ( but not exclusively) in the bulge. We do treat the entire bulb, most of us target the lower 2/3 of the hair follicle.YOu do want to affect the entire bulb area to loosen it. IT will consequentially kill both the papillae and the stem cells. Think of it this way, you destroy the papillae the hair has no food source and wont grow. You destroy the stem cells it cant grow again. Either will accomplish the same goal,but only one will do the job. Josepha famously commented to me recently she never targets the papilae, just the stem cells.
I use isoblend probes to affect a wide ( peanut shaped) energy pattern over a wide area with Synchro thermolysis . I get a really GOOD kill rate with this. The energy pattern is more than sufficient to affect both papilae and bulge.

Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (02/26/18 12:38 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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