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#125870 - 02/24/18 08:00 PM What does influence the kill rate?
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I've had over 30 full clearings (over 30 weeks) in some areas of my face, and noticed that some worked more than others. For example, the neck beard area worked quite well, unlike my sideburns... Both with about the same amount of clearings and always treating new hairs every week. The only difference I can think of between those 2 areas would be a greater amount of very pale hairs on the sideburns (almost transparent, unlike my overall beard which has mostly darker blond hairs).

First assumption: I don't think it's about phases of the hair, since they all were starting the anagen phase, except on the first clearing.

Second assumption: I don't think ''hidden hairs'' appeared after 30 weeks, that's almost 8 months on the face.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in those.

So what else could potentially influence the kill rate? (few ideas in mind: electrologist positioning, hair dept, hair colour?)

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#125877 - 02/25/18 07:38 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By zapmyface


Second assumption: I don't think ''hidden hairs'' appeared after 30 weeks, that's almost 8 months on the face.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in those.


After 8 months, it is possible that between 5-10% of the hairs can still appear, even if your electrologist's kill rate has been 99% throughout the process.

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#125878 - 02/25/18 07:44 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By zapmyface


So what else could potentially influence the kill rate? (few ideas in mind: electrologist positioning, hair dept, hair colour?)



Electrologist positioning. This aspect only affects the speed of execution. If the client's position is not ideal, the practitioner will have more difficulty making quick insertions. Such a thing will slow down the procedure, but should not influence the % kill rate.

Depth of hair is directly related to the size and caliber of the hair, and therefore with the size of the target to be destroyed. A terminal hair requires a deeper and wider lesion than a fine or intermediate hair. The % kill rate should be the same.

Hair colour. The absence or presence of melanin is an irrelevant factor in the % kill rate.

The % kill rate is conditioned only to these two factors: A) The perfect coordinates to enter with the needle, and B) An intuitive application of current in the heart or brain of the follicle.

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#125880 - 02/25/18 08:42 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I see, thank you for your answers.

Unrelated question regarding size of hair, does repetitive electro somehow shrinks the diameter of the hair? Or is that just the new feeling of having less (or none) hair around it so it feels ''weaker'' to the touch?

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#125884 - 02/25/18 11:12 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 72
The speed with which a hair grows, as well as the duration of its growth stage is directly related to its size. Thus, in male beard, once its development is complete, it is formed by terminal hair with an average of 80% thick hairs in anagen phase (growth) and a small percentage in telogen phase, and although we do not appreciate them there is also a small percentage of thinner hairs.

If your electrologist is working on a beard that has been shaved a few days before the beggining of treatment, she or he will be able to work only on thick hairs that are in active phase (growth phase or anagen). One or two weeks later, the operation will be repeated in another handful of hairs in active phase. And so on. As each handful of new hairs is treated and eliminated, new hairs with a smaller caliber will appear (since the caliber of these hairs is smaller, they need more time to appear on the scene). This phenomenon is what makes many consumers and electrologists believe that it is regrowth of the same hairs that have lost thickness.

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#125893 - 02/25/18 09:59 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Is it harder for an electrologist to figure out the hair phase and act accordingly with the needle than having all the hairs in anagen phase?

Would that be a reason why some (or most) electrologist are obsessed with anagen hairs that just pierced the skin? That also could explain why some wax or pluck the hair first so it's easier to have them all at the same... depth?

Again, I love assuming, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

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#125894 - 02/26/18 07:42 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1816
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Is it harder for an electrologist to figure out the hair phase and act accordingly with the needle than having all the hairs in anagen phase?

Would that be a reason why some (or most) electrologist are obsessed with anagen hairs that just pierced the skin? That also could explain why some wax or pluck the hair first so it's easier to have them all at the same... depth?

Again, I love assuming, so please correct me if I'm wrong.


There has been a persisting myth that only follicles in the anagen phase can be 'killed' because of a misunderstanding of the anatomy of the hair follicle and where/how the damage needs to occur. To the extent that this is what has been officially taught.

When I started visiting Josefa and Michael was not yet posting on HairTell, no one (as far as memory serves) believed that telogen hairs could be treated effectively and therefore doubted her clearance results. Things are slowly changing. I do wonder what the BIAE in the UK promote now in regards to this.

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#125896 - 02/26/18 10:01 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3425
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I mostly do body hair (in 3 clearances + a couple short "follow-ups"). I RELY on telogen hairs and will not start a treatment until I see LOTS of telogen hairs (in this way, I know we have the maximum amount of hairs to be treated).

The key error is in thinking that the papilla "grows the hair" when, actually, it's the stem cells that are relatively high in the skin. We should have learned a lot from those doing hair transplants ... but nobody has looked at the evidence.

(I did hair transplants with Dr. Perkins ... stunning revelations!)

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#125897 - 02/26/18 10:57 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Wow, that is truly interesting!

So, according to a quick internet research, the stem cells are located in some kind of bulge along the hair between the epidermis and papilla. Or maybe they're located all around the hair and not only in that ''bulge''? I'm not too sure.

In the telogen phase, that bulge ends up being very close to the papilla (and the skin's surface).

http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2021782079/2041687861/fx1.jpg
http://dev.biologists.org/content/develop/135/6/1059/F1.large.jpg
http://chemistscorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/hair-stem-cells.png

At least one of the electrologists that I've seen targeted the papilla, as she specifically said that my hair was ''deeper than anything she's seen to get to the bulb''.

I'm assuming that method still works relatively well, since a few hairs never came back, but maybe at a lower kill rate? The heat probably ends up destroying the stem cells too, or maybe that second zap (double zap method) ends up being near the stem cells after they target the papilla?

I wish you could do that 3 clearance method on the face though, wouldn't that be amazing?!


Edited by zapmyface (02/26/18 10:59 AM)

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#125903 - 02/26/18 12:37 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
The stem cells are located primarily ( but not exclusively) in the bulge. We do treat the entire bulb, most of us target the lower 2/3 of the hair follicle.YOu do want to affect the entire bulb area to loosen it. IT will consequentially kill both the papillae and the stem cells. Think of it this way, you destroy the papillae the hair has no food source and wont grow. You destroy the stem cells it cant grow again. Either will accomplish the same goal,but only one will do the job. Josepha famously commented to me recently she never targets the papilae, just the stem cells.
I use isoblend probes to affect a wide ( peanut shaped) energy pattern over a wide area with Synchro thermolysis . I get a really GOOD kill rate with this. The energy pattern is more than sufficient to affect both papilae and bulge.

Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (02/26/18 12:38 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125906 - 02/26/18 06:46 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
AlineBetancourt Offline
Contributor

Registered: 04/10/17
Posts: 12
Originally Posted By zapmyface

I wish you could do that 3 clearance method on the face though, wouldn't that be amazing?!


Well, be careful what you wish for ... it might come true.

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/110107/1.html

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#125908 - 02/27/18 01:22 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Yes I've seen that post already, and adding it to Michael's 100h are what started this quest to find out why there is such a big difference in treatment time for some people...

Speaking of kill rate, if I simply ''math'' the effectiveness of the zapping over a period of time, my personal experience as a client would be around 3% for the hairs on a specific area. My math goes like this, all in approximation:

Hair ratio treated / clearings

Now, there's no way to know the exact the hair ratio unless you count them (which I sadly didn't). For the sake of simple math, I'm roughly guessing that there's around 10% remaining, which equals to 90% effectively treated. Divided by 30 clearings and you get an average of 3% permanently destroyed hairs per clearing. If my guess was incorrect in the remaining % of hair, let's say I really have 5% remaining, the average would now be 3,17%.

We can conclude that, in my case, the effectiveness is roughly around 3%.

I wouldn't say kill rate, since there's obviously a lot of hidden hairs at any time, and there's no way of figuring out which hair was which (hidden or regrowing), so I'm using the word effectiveness here. One clearing for me was about 1h, that's why I didn't include the time factor.


Edited by zapmyface (02/27/18 01:39 AM)

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#125910 - 02/27/18 08:39 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3425
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
There are many factors that influence "kill rate" (I prefer "success rate"). What factors do NOT equate are the following: 1) credentials of the practitioner, 2) professional office or attire, 3) well-constructed website, 4) (fake) endorsements on said website, 5), Yelp (they can write their own reviews), 6) the make of the machine, 7) the method or modality employed, 8) the needle being used, 9) overall years in the business, 10) nice or pleasant personality. These factors have some influence, but if you rely on these only ... no bueno!

Clients usually grapple with "success rate" AFTER they have spent a small fortune, or had (what they assume) were bad results. There are, of course, real ways to test-out a practitioner before being devastated. However, it is up to the client to have a little "attitude," ask the right questions, and follow the appropriate measures to test and reassure themselves of what's about to happen.

Ten years ago I was in a wheelchair and wore a steel ankle brace (bad ankle injury from running). I interviewed six surgeons until I found the right one. I reviewed what each had said with my family physician and others in the medical field. Four surgeons said I would never walk or run again. Now, I'm 100% ... thanks to the surgeon I found. Indeed, I had to travel ... it was worth it.

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#125932 - 03/02/18 10:33 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
adrien_sanchiz Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 315
Loc: France, Spain
Very interesting post Mike ! This is a very precise resume that a lot of pros and consumers should know.

A official trainer of a very famous electrolysis brand told me that the machine have a very big influence on the results. It’s more : she said that results depend a lot on the machine !
We was disagree...
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#125934 - 03/02/18 12:55 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
zapmyface let me fill you in a little bit on the math, maybe it will help you out some and make you understand.

In sept 2016 when I was working with another firm here in Ottawa I did a consult with a lady.Her voice was a little low, and at first I thought she might be transgender. She wasnt overweight and had no diagnosis for thyroid issues, PCOS . I do beard removals all the time on transgender people. In about 100 hours. I was not prepared however with just how much hair this lady could have. When I finally got her under the magnifier I was presented with the thickest, densest, widest beard pattern ripe with ingrowns from plucking that I have to date and all languno hair stimulated to terminal from some hormonal influence, ever witnessed. I advised her , that while I could ordinarily complete the job in about 100 hours, that this was so big a job that I feared it might take double that. It still might ( but I rather doubt it) . I advised her to do as much treatment as she could manage within the first 3-4 months, clear as much as we possibly could early on. She took this advice to heart.

That was on Sept 8 2016 and it's now about 18 months later. So how'd we do? Well I'm happy to report that her hair is significnatly reduced and she is on her way to being a non client. The total treatment time right now stands at 86 hours and 45 minutes. I still work on her about every 3 weeks or amonth, I clear terminal hair for 10-15 minutes and the rest kill some accelerated languno hair that generally doesnt bother her for the est of a 45 minute session. She'll do this for a few months, but she will have consumed under 90 hours total for the job.

So hurray for her right? Well time after time, year after year, I have heard James, Mike , Dee, Beate, Josepha, and many others make statements that its"somewhere around 100 hours" . But I didnt have enough faith in my own work, to quote at that. If its taking longer than that to do a full beard, then something is wrong.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125935 - 03/02/18 03:29 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Ugh I don't know what to think anymore... On one hand I'm pleased that my 40-50h on my face can be noticeable, but at the same time I'm about a quarter done, so I'm trying to figure out how I can speed this up a bit.

My first electrologist I believe didn't have much experience with beards (yeah, I know I should've probably asked more questions at that time but I was way too eager to at least test it out first, big mistake lol), but the one I've seen for the most time afterwards has an extensive experience with male/trans beards and has a few referrals from the community. This was the reason I chose her (I know you're gonna hate me Michael lol). There just isn't that many professionals who have done male/trans beards here apparently. She also said that it takes about a year to have most hairs on an area gone, which after about 8 months with her I believe is entirely correct.

I guess I'l talk about my progress... We first decided to concentrate on one area (that wasn't my chin with scars). https://imgur.com/a/PbXAx https://imgur.com/a/yWTIs This first clearance took about 3h. My sideburns and cheeks aren't really dense with hairs, so most was done on my neck and jawline. I'd say pilosity wise, this is about a quarter of my face. We then proceeded to clear the regrowing hairs every single week for about 8 months until I stopped. The first week was 3h, then a few 2h and then 1h weekly for the rest of those months. We started doing the other side on the last month or so (about 15min of the hour each week).

Again, I wanna say that I'm happy with the concrete results, I'm not going to take a pic of the area now, but believe me when I say that the hair is mostly gone (which is great). I'm just wondering about the amount of time it took, especially if the routine of going there every week was the most efficient. There's this annoying little voice at the back of my head whispering: ''but it could be done faster, look at those amazing posts with 2-3 clearances on the entire face for that same amount of time you did on a quarter of your face, why would you go there to suffer every single week when you can also have marathon sessions''! And then I remember that some people I've read about online have over 200h and I shouldn't even be writing all of this ranty nonsense right now lol!

I'm honestly just trying to figure out how to be the most efficient possible, I personally hate wasting time for something that I (relatively) have the power to change. What can I do to make it more efficient? Would paying more to travel to some miracle worker who can do 2-3 marathon sessions to remove a good portion of my beard be of greater value compared to the longer method that I've got going right now? I mean, it works, and it's cheap (around 40$ USD per hour), so I almost feel bad trying to be more effective and look elsewhere. But oh is it a boring weekly routine that doesn't see any end...

I'd love to do 10 hours ''marathons'' once a month (or more), though. But like I said earlier she doesn't believe in that stuff, should I test it with her to convince her that it can work?

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#125936 - 03/02/18 05:17 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
In the words of the Captain Jack Sparrow:
"I know exactly what you mean luv"
In the first 9 months of a trans beard removal ( and I have done this , on my own face) It seems like the hair just keeps on coming. Like you kill all the hair and it just comes right back. I generally reommend 2-3 hour a week for the first 3-4 months for a trans client. I can do it in less if I'm quick or the hair density isnt as high. The way the process works is you do most of the treatment at the beginning, and then it slowly starts to dwindle down the time investment , but not for the first 4 months minimum. At around 9 months, if you are persistent with this, it's like someone slowly starts turning off the tap. Thats when you first notice it and start to see the results of your work.
From what I understood from your post, I dont understand how you worked up to 50-60 hours in 8 months, it doesnt seem like you are doing that much work?
But the local route, is definitely the way to go and having an electrologist experienced with trans faces is yes, invaluable.

A lot of trans people pit a lot of faith in these "Mass sessions" from About you or e3000 but most of the time when they get done with that, I've been told they are disappointed with the amount of regrowth.

The slow easy path, is the RIGHT WAY to do this.

Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (03/02/18 05:21 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125937 - 03/02/18 08:06 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
It's weird, every time I try to give a lot (too much?) of info I seem to confuse people even more lol. Every time I try to explain I just end up writing a 30 pages essay. The hell with it!

-going to talk like this from now on

-1st electrologist = 10h on face + scars

-2nd electrologist = couldn't do whole face since scars were healing + suing

-decided to start with left side of my face (pics) =37h in 8 months, worked great

-couldn't do more since she preached that hairs must be zapped as soon as they appeared every single week otherwise won't work

-personally not willing to do 15h+ to clear entire face EVERY WEEK

-depressed/annoyed about the suing, scars, and routine of treatments = stopped electro

-learned about how the hair doesn't have to be instantly treated weekly to be completely destroyed and now wondering how I can convince my electrologist to at least test it when I'm ready and find ways to be more efficient

Voilà!

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#125938 - 03/02/18 10:55 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
yes, but you have missed the part about hairs being able to be killed in ANY STAGE OF HAIR GROWTH.
Listen, Michael, and another friend Josepha, work identically. They work towards something called the 3 clearance method ( this is for body work not faces, but the principle holds the same ( there's just more folicles and more cycles of growth on the face) .The idea is this, they work an area in short order and CLEAR the entire area. All the hair. Catogen, telogen early anogen, if its a hair, its dead! Now, they do this 4 months apart 3 times. When they are done, there is NO MORE HAIR ( or very minimal hair) . There's even evidence such a strategy could work with faces.
Now, I want you to think about this. If only hairs in "early anogen" as you say are killed, how is what Michael and Josepha doing, in any way statistically possible? The answer is, it ISNT! All stages of hair, the hair follicle can be disabled. We are not treating the hair, it's removed from the follicle anyway, we are putting our energy into the HAIR FOLLICLE and destroying the germination cells present primarily in the bulge. This hair itslf, is inconsequential. It is not a living thing past the root it just a collection of dead keratine. The follicle is the thing!
It sounds like you still could do better and may still be looking for the electrologist to take you there.. If the electrologist you are seeing will only target hair as you suggest then she's missing a whole lot of follicles. You should look elsewhere if possible.
Yes, I remember your story, but I answer gosh a ton of questions every week and treat a clietele besides. It's hard to remember whos who and their story sometimes. I might be getting old.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125939 - 03/03/18 06:07 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
-I know that now (about any stage), as there's alarming evidence on this forum + LOGIC vs hearsay

-she targeted all the hairs and cleared the entire area weekly

-treated area = https://imgur.com/a/pIwcM

-other side (nearly untreated area) in comparison = https://imgur.com/a/dYvnS

-looks pretty much done (and it is), but you can't see finer/transparent/blond hairs in the pics

-cost/effectiveness for 37h (over 8 months)= 1500$ USD

-cost/effectiveness in comparison with you, Michael or Josepha = ?

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#125943 - 03/03/18 10:38 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
Well first of all, I dont compare myself to Michael or Jojepha. Or Dee, or Beate, or emancipated elect, or any of the other professionals here that I learned from . It's not that I dont have faith in my work, but yes to a certain degree every electrologist is different . I think it's a a respect thing? I do me.
Every electrologist, uses a different strategy. I use a thinning approach generally and rotate areas until it is possible to clear the entire face in a single session. I consider this point my "first clearance" and I have never had it take me more than 30 or so hours except in a single case ( the one I described to you previously) .

Your electrologist seems to be using a different strategy, called the clear and advance strategy. It's as you decribed you clear an area, and then reclear it and advance into new untreated areas each visit. One isnt right and the other wrong, they are different ways to get there.

That said, lets draw some comparisons, because, I feel, 37 hours is too long to be clearing one cheek. As a matter of fact, lets do some financial math.
$1500 US, is approximately $1930 CAD, so lets call it $2000 ( nice round number). What have you gotten, versus what you would have recieved for the same money with me, Michael, or Dee. I charge $90 an hour CAD ( just put it up $5 yesterday) and $410 for a 5 hour package. So in my clinic, you could get 25 hours of electrolysis for about the same amount of money.So what is the difference in results?

The cheek, is one of the easiest and fastest progressing areas on the face to proceed. Compared to the chin and neck this is honestly not a whole lot of work. If I can finish a case in 100 hours ( and I can) then $8000 is enough to give that 100 hours needed.The area that we would spend the MOST time on? the chin, and neck. These by far are the densest number of follicles on the human body.



Recently, I started a pre-hrt transgirl with minimal growth. She had a LOT less hair than you, but I gained first clearance in about 5 hours. The entire face. Really! You've had Michael here saying he rarely exceeds 85 hours on a beard case, which is pretty consistent with my results or anyone elses.

So the question is, do you have faith, that repeating and doing another 37 hours to the other cheek, leaving just 11 hours total treatment time left to do the chin and face, is going to be efficient enough to complete the job? I dont believe so.Looking at the progress thus far in the number of hours so far, I feel it will average 150 or more hours for this eectrologist to complete the job.

Remember when I said, if it's taking more than 100 hours something is wrong? I consider myself a pretty fast and efficient electrologist. There is one case however I took more than 100 hours for a beard case. It was mine. I never recorded the numbers, but I do have a good feel for how much treatmentI was doing and it was somewhere in the 150-200 hour range.Why? Because I was a rank amatuer at the time and working on myself and slow. The treatment was inefficient. Your electrologist seems to be, going about the same pace as my DIY job. She does however seem to be doing very good work, but I highly doubt she will be able to finish the case in as many hours.My treatment was COST effective because I dont charge myself. It wasnt time effective.

Now, all of this is, comparing apples and oranges. Your electrologist IS making progress. My efficientcy will not be the same as Michaels, or Dee's or Josepha's. We are all different. We have different skilsets, and different efficiencies.

So does all this mean your electrologists treatment is bad? NO! If you are looking at it on a pure cost/effectiveness perspective, actually, she's doing ok. Will it take more than 100 hours to finish the job? Most certainly. Will she bring in the finished product at less than $9000 total cost? Well you got 37 hours of electrolysis for $2000 CAD and if we extrapolate that would mean you could get roughly 160 hours for around the same cost as 100 hours in my clinic. Can she finish the job in 160 hours? I think so, or pretty close. So on a pure cost/effectiveness ratio calculation, your electrologist is actually doing alright. It WILL take longer number of treatment hours for her to get there, but her reduced price per hour, is what makes it cost effective. Is it treatment time effective? Not so much, but you are going to get there either way.

It comes down to this. Michael has been fond of saying "what is the TOTAL TREATMENT TIME that is what is the total time, to complete the job, start to finish. Now what is the financial cost of that treatment time. If we are comparing apples and oranges to determine cost effectiveness, your electrologist is doing alright , her cost/ percentage of the total treatment time, is actually about the same as my own, or Michaels , or anyone elses. IT might take her longer to get there, but the cost/effectiveness calculation is approximately equal.

Seana



Edited by Iluv2zap (03/03/18 11:27 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125945 - 03/03/18 11:53 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
First of all thank you so much for taking the time to write long answers, I really appreciate it!

That basically confirms or answers everything I was obsessing over, lol!

The only thing now would be to ask her to not do weekly sessions as this truly destroys my motivation, I'd much rather do several hours in one or a few days every 1-2 month than go in 1h every week! Which I know she won't like but, in the end, it won't really matter since the results will hopefully be the same.


Edited by zapmyface (03/03/18 11:55 AM)

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#125946 - 03/03/18 12:08 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3425
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Great Job Seana.

Indeed, the results will be the same "IF" she doesn't get frightened and under-treat the hairs.

My own perception is that your results will be better by not going weekly.

Here's the deal: a very new returning anagen hair is not fully keratinized and thus not hardened in the follicle ... actually to the outer root sheath. In this way, an "easy epilation" often means that the therapist removed the hair with little or no traction ... think "plucked it out" ... and assumed the hair was fully and properly treated. Lots of times IT'S NOT!

Although I have never done the experimentation (and never will) I think dispatching telogen hairs can result in a BETTER kill rate! ... You, "zapmyface," can probably figure this out yourself ... you have a great analytical mind. Think "getting ALL the stem cells wherever they might be" and a clean release.

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#125947 - 03/03/18 12:35 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
My guess would be to figure out what the length of time a male beard hair cycle is and go when there's the maximum amount of telogen hairs present. I believe that's what you're doing on the body, right?

However I'm fairly certain that the hair on the face has a much shorter cycle, and I remember having seen a few numbers here and there about it, but for the life of me I can't seem to be able to find them anymore!

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#125948 - 03/03/18 06:23 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
Well that's because the numbers are more or less theoretical. Everyones opinions differ and for us its very difficult to get an accurate count of the number of telogen hairs. We can reduce them and force the hairs into anogen through plucking ( please dont test this) but there isnt really any way to force the hairs on the face into telogen to have more of them.

I agree with Michael on your analytical mind. Have you ever considered trying electrolysis on your own? You seem to have a grasp on some of the concepts.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125949 - 03/03/18 07:33 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I would love to try it on my own! Actually I'd much prefer to do so now that I think about it... I'd just have two tiny questions before I start my research on that...

Do I need a big investment for the machine?

Doesn't it require some acrobatic movements for doing it on your own face?

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#125950 - 03/03/18 08:27 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
Machine prices vary on where you are and availability. I tend towards Apilus machines for learning and I happen to live in Ontario and there is a glut of used machines for sale in uebec right next to me. Some american folks have had luck finding them on craigslist, or ebay. Thing is if you are going to try on yourself I highly recommend blend.And it doesnt take the newest fanciest machine to do a blend treatment and there are tons of machines on the used market available on the used market for anywhere from $100-$1000 that arent suitable for use in a clinic, but would be just fine for a used machine for DIY. Dont turn your nose down at a silouette tone or a clairbend or fisher schientific that looks like it was made in the 70's with old stereo components. Often these bargains can be had on the cheap and work just fine.So answer to the first question is no.

The Answer to the second question is YES! Having done the majority of the electrolysis on my own face, it is a challenge to see some places ( especially the neck while having reversed movements in a magnifying mirror. It is often hard to judge and requires excellent hand to eye coordination.

If you do decide to do a DIY, know that it is a difficult path and for some places, you will want an electrologists help anyway. But theres zero reason you cant manage an insertion yourself with correct guideance.

An excellent source on Blend electrolysis, is Michael Bono's book, The Blend Method. IT's available from Texas Electrolysis Supply who will happily ship it to you by mail, I think it's $42 if I'm not mistaken but I dont remember.
I dont recommend strait thermolysis for DIY on the face. I believe the levels of thermolysis too high and the potential to cut skin with inaccurate insertions inhertent to DIY make it not worth the risk at least for first electrolysis. But blend is an easy to learn modality with a high kill rate and does not use such high levels of thermolysis . Will it take you a while to learn how to do it? Yup. But, the author of the book, is following your thread. You might however consider doing your own, lip and chin. These are the easiest areas to DIY and you have an opportunity, to treat and kill all hair, not just anogen or early anogen. They all die! Let your electrologist, finish up the neck where it will be more difficult for you to see.

I'm one if not the best known DIYer around here. Its how I began. Since that I've time I've inspired at least 3 other transpeople to take up the practise and become electrologists themselves. I dont think I'm done yet.

Seana



Edited by Iluv2zap (03/03/18 08:34 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125951 - 03/03/18 08:56 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Very interesting. I live in Montreal so that's good news!

I wanna do much more than my entire face so doing everything myself would probably be more beneficial in the long run. Also I do love to test things, so I'll have a lot of fun before touching my face with it lol.

I mean if it really is that simple in the sense that it only requires a X00$ machine and a learning curve, I will 100% do it. I'm honestly more concerned about finding the actual machine, probes, lights?, microscope?, and all those small details than the actual task if that makes sense.

Is it weird that I'm already eager and excited? I have issues...

Funny story about blend (or galvanic), all the electrologists I've talked to in person warned me about how it could cause scars. Oh the irony... since my scars were caused by thermolysis! (not that I blame the method but still quite ironic)

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#125952 - 03/03/18 09:17 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
You're an hour an a half down the road from me in Ottawa and I can tell you montreal has some great electrologists and lots of them . Look for Dimi from this site.. Montreal kijiji is littered with used silouette tones and Apilus Machines. For electrolysis equipment and accessible knowledge you madam are sitting in shangrala.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125953 - 03/03/18 09:23 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125954 - 03/03/18 09:28 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438


Edited by Iluv2zap (03/03/18 09:31 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125955 - 03/03/18 09:34 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I don't quite get the ''madam are sitting in shangrala'' reference. What does it mean, and where is it from?

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-sante-besoins-sp...gationFlag=true This isn't gonna cut it, right? The big Apilus or Silhouette are a bit expensive to start for my taste... 500$+

What about those types? https://www.kijiji.ca/v-achat-et-vente-d...gationFlag=true I had one of those many years ago however it made sounds, not zaps... (bad joke)

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#125956 - 03/03/18 09:39 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
It's not a Quote. "Shangrila" is a mythical chinese city with pletiful food and supplies. It was meant to say "You are in the land of plenty"


The electropil seems to be a thermolysis only machine. You are looking for something that does galvanic ( DC) and thermolysis both. But there are lots of machines with dials liek that that will work fine, but I dont see DC controls on that one.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125957 - 03/03/18 09:43 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
Actually scratch that, I can make out the dc controls. That would do fine.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125958 - 03/03/18 09:47 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
dimi seems to be a quite competent electrologist in Montreal also:

http://hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/users/29503/dimi.html
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125959 - 03/03/18 09:49 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Yes I've even just saw his ad on Kijiji lol!

I'm going undercover! Just kidding, I'm not quite ready to start my treatments again... Unless I personally do them myself? Who knows...

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#125960 - 03/03/18 09:57 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
I'm betting you do have some other areas you want to effect removal on.

Let me tell you about a discussion I and quite a few of the other electrologists have been having on one of the facebook groups. The issue is the surgeons using primarily the "scrape" method for GRS. Being int he home city of Brossard's clinic , I can tell you he is one of the worst offenders for this. Women are left with hair post surgically growing inwards into the neovagina which is almost impossible to remove post surgically, and having the concerns dismissed by the surgeon . Meanwhile these poor women are left with a hairy vaginal cavity they cant do a whole lot about.
The solution, is to do electrolysis early. So that it is COMPLETE a year before your surgery date. But Brossard is telling peope NOT to get electrolysis saying he gets itusing the scrape method. He Doesnt and I amoung others have had many consultations with transwomen who are paying the price for the doctors arrogance.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125961 - 03/03/18 10:03 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
oh and for petes sake pick up that copy of Electrolysis Thermolysis and the Blend, for $5 its a steal .I studied from this text.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125962 - 03/03/18 10:15 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Oh yes I've read about the vaginal hairs, it's awful. I don't have gender dysphoria by the way, I'm just looking to get hairless, at least for now!

I will get that book!

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#125963 - 03/03/18 11:14 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
dimi Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 107
Loc: Montreal, Canada
zapmyface,

If you have time you can come to my office for a coffee and we can speak:)

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Electrolyse+Microtrolyse+Thermocoagulation,+Clinic+Dimi,+Saint-Laurent/@45.5012439,-73.7000247,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cc9181b7409e843:0xc4a897f1a40f6261!8m2!3d45.5012402!4d-73.697836

Dimi

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#125964 - 03/04/18 06:07 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: dimi]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Thanks for the offer but I'm not looking to restart my sessions just yet (unless it's on my own maybe)

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#125965 - 03/04/18 09:05 AM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
I think Dimi was just offering a coffee and a chat.Grab those opportunities that come up, you can learn a lot and get invaluable advice.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#125967 - 03/04/18 12:17 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
dimi Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 107
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Seana you are right (as always):)
I can help zapmyface with what I can.

Dimi

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#125970 - 03/04/18 04:04 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: Iluv2zap]
fenix Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 520

Wow I would so get that Hinkel book, just don't know how to navigate that site. $5 USD?? Is that person nuts? Even the used ones on amazon or ebay still go for $44 at least.


Edited by fenix (03/04/18 04:05 PM)

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#125972 - 03/04/18 05:09 PM Re: What does influence the kill rate? [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1438
it's like Craigslist.
here's another copy in OTtawa for $40
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-health-beauty/ot...gationFlag=true
and priced are usually CDN not US, so it's actually about $4 US.Sometimes people just want to get rid of their excess stuff.Tghe downside for you americans, is its generally person to person transactions.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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