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#126213 - 04/13/18 09:55 AM Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis?
melb_aussie Offline
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Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Can someone shed me some light if you have used both Clareblend/Hinkel (manually) VERSUS Apilus (computerised treatments)? What'r the pro and con? I think this questions may be asked many times previously, please share the links for answers if u may.

Because I only use the devices manually either Blend or only thermolysis. Never ever use the computerised one before.

Thank you all the caring Electrologists out there for your time,
Nora
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#126214 - 04/13/18 10:14 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
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Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
The reason I ask because I'm still reluctant to invest in something cost more than half the price of a new effective laser hair removal machine. In addition, the computerised ones won't let me control the energy settings I want to use.

But I'm definitely looking for alternative machine or ways to reduce the treatment time per follicle => Which mean higher energy required but I'm not so sure whether it is safe to do so with the manual blend devices?

Also which such high energy, I believe insulated needles r recommended to minimise therapists' errors.


Edited by melb_aussie (04/13/18 10:16 AM)
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#126215 - 04/13/18 11:02 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
TheFlyingProbe Online
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Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 106
In the real world both computerized (high-intensity) flash and manual low-intensity blend are equally effective for permanent hair removal. To the best of my knowledge, no single machine is available that offers both techniques. Aside from owning two machines, the electrologist must choose which approach better suits their business and buy accordingly. I am currently debating which route to go.


Edited by TheFlyingProbe (04/13/18 11:03 AM)

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#126216 - 04/13/18 11:16 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
Yes the xcell pro is expensive. I've never the less had some success with mine, notwithstanding the probeholders which fail constantly.
You can actually set your own parameters and it's easy to do with slide controls on the touchscreen. After working with the machine for a year, I still find myself finding new features and way to do things. But I've been an Apilus machine user since I first started doing electrology, and that's what I stuck with. At the price though, it will be the only Apilus I purchase again .One of my concerns when looking at swittching away from Apilus was that I wouldnt be able to learn a new way of doing things if Iwent to another manufacturer. But Skip from instantron was a great help in having me get over these apprehensions. And instantrons are less than 1/3 the cost of an Xcell . So that might be one of the options you may consider looking into.

Seana
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Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126218 - 04/13/18 01:28 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
In reality there is no such thing as "computerized electrolysis" (which is what the public assumes when they hear "computer").

Indeed, many machines have computerized programs, but the actual electrolysis procedure depends on the operator's skill ONLY.

Look at it this way. Your modern car has a computer, and there are many features that can assist your driving skills (e.g., APS brakes). However, if you're a terrible driver, nothing in your car's systems will keep you from crashing.

Self-driving cars? Probably so, in the future. Fully automated electrolysis? Probably, but in the very distant future (maybe never).

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#126219 - 04/13/18 01:51 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Typo: make that "ABS" brakes

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#126220 - 04/13/18 01:54 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: TheFlyingProbe]
Josefa M. Reina Offline

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Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 74
Originally Posted By TheFlyingProbe
In the real world both computerized (high-intensity) flash and manual low-intensity blend are equally effective for permanent hair removal. To the best of my knowledge, no single machine is available that offers both techniques. Aside from owning two machines, the electrologist must choose which approach better suits their business and buy accordingly. I am currently debating which route to go.


There is a machine that allows you to work manually or through the application of automatic pulses that you have previously configured. It's the Elite Spectrum of Instantron. At the push of a button, the system switches from manual (where you have timer control) to automatic mode (with which the current will continue to flow until the pre-programmed pulse duration ends).

The only drawback of this machine is that it does not include a clock that controls the treatment time.

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#126222 - 04/13/18 03:02 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
TheFlyingProbe Online
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Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 106
Thank you for the clarification Josefa. This leads to my next question - at low intensities, can the Elite Spectrum duplicate the Hinkel/Clareblend technique of several seconds per hair using progressive epilation? In other words, what range on the Spectrum RF settings would be equivalent to the 35 - 90 volts of RF typically employed by the Clareblend and Hinkel machines?

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#126226 - 04/13/18 10:01 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Hi All

So from my digested info, with the machines that I already have (Clareblend & Hinkel) I have to master the how to use the machines in high energy setting!!!??? Can you please tell me what should the settings be for HF & DC says for underarms & legs of says around 60 units of lye so that each follicle released within 2 sec on average?

So far, I have never set the RF above 63 (higher than that client wont tolerate the feeling) & DC never be more than 1 miliAmp. With such setting it took around 4-6 sec to release each hair within 4-6 sec on average.
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#126229 - 04/14/18 12:28 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
I cant tell you. I dont work anything like Michael or Josepha do. I did try and do some fast blend experiments back in the day but I cant say I ever got it right. Generally I think the thermolysis pulse is lasting half a second to 1 second so you may not need to turn your settings up as high as you think. The Dc is mostly an aftercurrent it's the thermolysis that does the heavy lifting.Think along the lines of what it would take to do a normal thermolysis treatment in under a second, then add a second of galvanic on 1ma to seal the deal.
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Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126230 - 04/14/18 12:34 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
melb if you look in Michaels book the blend method there's a good description on how to find your working point in thermolysis.
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Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126231 - 04/14/18 01:05 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Hi Seana

Thank u very much for your advice.
I'll probably re-read Michael's book the Blend again today. But I'm still awaiting for info of those answers.
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#126238 - 04/14/18 03:34 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
page 109
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Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126240 - 04/14/18 08:56 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Hi Seana,

With reference to page 117 Figure 7, when the hair is from 30 unit of lye or thicker, the book only suggest to treat each hair for minimum of 6 sec. But I have find my working point where each follicle can b treated for 4-6 sec on average (sometime I used Bono's body technic).
My issue is I wish to treat each hair follicle within 2 sec on average.
How can I do it safely with the machine I currently have got? I believe any higher energy settings require proper insulated needle (by that I mean around 1mm or less of insulation from the skin surface so that the energy still working where the bulge suppose to b)
On the top of my head, Michael Bono suggested in his books at least 4 sec should allow galvanic to work in each follicle. But it took too long to clear the big area.
I wish to clear the big body area (1st clearance) says within the first session or 2 (within 6-8 hrs in total) & then using Bono's blend technique for later clearance for lower regrowth rate. It takes around 4 clearances to clear all the BODY area permanently using blend technique with uninsulated needle.
But the quicker technique I believe not enough time for the energy to destroy all follicle containing hair stem cells & growth factors, thus higher regrowth rate. But at least I can significantly increase client's commitment to continue to finish the whole journey since they have the feeling of not having the unwanted hair for the 1st time.


Edited by melb_aussie (04/14/18 09:03 PM)
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#126241 - 04/15/18 12:07 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
gosh my copy is at the office, and I'm having pc problems with my portable so I dont currently have a computer and the book in the same place:) so I'll have to wait to reference.
By all means, do use an insulated needle. It will help with your energy levels and with putting that energy in the right place.
Michael has stated several times in the past that what he presents in the book, is not the way he practises.You have to throw away the rule book for blend, ( or at the least the unit of lye calculations part)
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Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126242 - 04/15/18 01:07 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
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Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Hi Seana

I'll try.

Thank u,
Nora
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Please visit my websites:
Facebook I: Upwey Electrolysis => https://www.facebook.com/ElectrolysisUpwey/

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#126245 - 04/15/18 09:14 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Think "Grammar!"

When you learn any new language, you have to think about the various rules of grammar. Once you know the language you no longer have to think about the rules ... at all. For example, when you speak your native language, I'm sure you never form the sentences in your head first (with proper grammar) before speaking. (Okay, nowadays we have to think about PRONOUNS!)

In the early days, the blend machines had no DC meters. Hinkel watched what his operators were doing (how they found the balance of currents) and only then he put meters on the machines to discover more precisely what they were doing. Hinkel formulated the "Units of Lye" chart based on what people were already doing. Not the other way around.

And, this is exactly how grammar is developed. "Rule makers" create "rules" in language based on how people are already speaking. The language comes first ... and the grammar is formulated later. (That's why grammar is never perfect.) The first mistake was when Hinkel (actually Bill Schuler) put a "unit computer" on the machine and started to tie people into this "rule nonsense." (Hinkel himself was opposed to the "unit computer.") I also emphasized the "chart," and other manufacturers computerized the whole damn thing.

If I owned a school, I would cover up all the meters and gizmos and have the students find their working point organically using their hands and eyes. Rules and computers cannot supplant the operator's skill or judgement. You don't have to break the rules, but you do have to know what constitutes a good treatment. These are two different things.

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#126246 - 04/15/18 09:26 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Additionally, I get a few emails daily that ask, "What are your settings?" I don't even respond. Why?

The question makes no sense. It would be like somebody asking you, "How many "RPMs" do produce in your motor to drive your car?"

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#126248 - 04/15/18 10:50 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Deedra Offline

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Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9712
Loc: United States
The best answer to professional newbie electrologists or do-it-yourselfers about settings is, start low and work it up until the hair releases ...... AND the skin looks fine. I get those questions, too, and they cannot be answered precisely because of so many variables. Using a size 2 Gold probe is different than using a size 6 Gold probe. Insertions must be perfect, especially so when doing thermolysis. If insertions are not perfect, the tendency is to turn up the energy level, which is not good.

Hairtell is not a place to educate consumers about the art and skill of doing electrolysis, though we do say general things that can be helpful.
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Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#126249 - 04/15/18 10:55 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
Dee just described the process for finding your working point (same as the book).
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126260 - 04/16/18 10:18 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
I use synchro on my xcell to remove hairs with thermolysis every day with no traction whatsoever in under 1/2 a second. There are thermolysis currents available on every amachine out there that can do the same. All "computerized epilators" have the same sability pretty much. So you work up and find the "working point" by gradually increasing the timing and intensity until a clean release is achieved. at that point, then you add your DC currents and replicate the thermolysis settings in a blend treatment.
As has been stated to you, none of this follows any formula or rule books for doing blend, and the amount and type of current is individual to the situation, type and location of hair, probe size accurcy of insertions .No one can give you a number because every situation is different, right down to the type and calibration of machine.You just find your thermoolysis working point, then add the desired amount of DC aftercurrent. Having been one of the people who pestered Michael Josepha and others for those settings in the past, I can tell you the only settings that exist are what you come up with.

I can tell you of all the electrologists who have tried to replicate Michael or Josepha's work, I dont know of any who have been successful.


Edited by Iluv2zap (04/16/18 10:20 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126281 - 04/17/18 12:34 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Thank you everyone. Yes it is correct nowadays I dont even care abt the lye unit (grammar thingie) anymore. All I care is the diameter, angle of insertion & the depth of
both hair & the needle &
the speed & the skin reaction

So I have to find my way around to work with D machines (they r legends) that I already hv got. Also I hv to figuring out with the insulate & uninsulated needles to yield the faster techniques. Whatever my skill around at that level, surely it gets better with time & experience.


Edited by melb_aussie (04/17/18 12:39 PM)
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#126282 - 04/17/18 01:02 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
I'm obsessed with the faster technique because of my background & the lack of commitment I hv encountered with some of my clients.

I have had my lower legs hair removed by Kobayashi Yamada Method via Japanese IME machine around 1998 in medical clinic in Bangkok Thailand. The set up each session was that I had 2 therapists performed the task on each leg. Each follicle take less than a second or 2 & First few clearances of such WHOLE large area for both lower legs took around 4-6 hrs.
Each session = Each Clearance of the whole area.

As per, respected Michael Bono said in his book (one of my bibles) regrowth rate will be higher due to too short cooking time. I think I spent around 12-14 sessions to have all hairs of my lower legs hair permanently removed over a yr by that clinic. But many others are a bit lower due to my hormonal imbalance issue.

My aim is to clear all the BODY hairs in one big area within the first 2 session of around 8 hrs in total. Then use blend for later clearances to reduce the regrowth rate. The reason for this is that I want the WOW feeling from the clients. How would the clients feel to have such area hair free for the 1st time. I hope this would encourage their COMMITMENT to continue & finish the whole journey.


Edited by melb_aussie (04/17/18 01:03 PM)
_________________________
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#126283 - 04/17/18 01:34 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
melb_aussie Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Please note:
skin reaction is the skin reaction. They r the same process no matter what electro-surgical methods have applied to the skin. With skillful hands, I had never felt I had been plucking nor Kobayashi Yamada method drawn blood. The hair (hair + colourless follicle) came out the same as other methods if done properly.

Purely based on my experiences, for Japanese & Thai Doctors IME is one of very few legend machines that r still used till today. Super hard to grab hold.


Edited by melb_aussie (04/17/18 01:40 PM)
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#126284 - 04/17/18 01:41 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Why not simply use flash for the first clearances?

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#126291 - 04/17/18 10:49 PM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: melb_aussie]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1531
Why not use blend? Or pure galvanic zapmyface?

I will tell you zapmyface that for all of my own face, I used blend.Considering the courseness and hair density of course deep mens beard hairs it often took me 2 cycles of the coursest setting on my SM-500 ( literally the predecessor to the machine Dimi uses) .to get a clean release of the hair. So average 10-12 secnds per cycle for a total 20-24 seconds with blend currents running. Why? Because thats what it took to kill those big hairs. So mens hair is inherently differently structured than womens are, it takes more electrolysis energy to affect the deep course hairs. So my 20-24 seconds of blend, per hair was reasonable. But can you imagine how much that slowed my progress working on myself? It took me, on my own face, hundreds of hours. And you want to know something? I get complemented all the time on my skin quality. The blend treatments left that good of a result.
But for the last 2 years, professionally, I've mostly practiced flash thermolysis, either synchro, or picoflash on snazzy new kit.And the work is better than its ever been.

What I'm getting at is it doesnt matter the modality. The different modality makes no difference on the result.They are all just a means to an end. The reality is I think I can accomplish that goal more efficiently with synchro, and the results show me I'm not wrong, but I could get to that same place, in any modality but it's not often a transgirl wants me to spend 400 hours clearing her beard.It's a hard sell to be sure.

I have a couple clients with minimal growth who love their blend treatments. It's very rewarding when I get the chance to do it.

Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (04/17/18 10:52 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126293 - 04/18/18 08:18 AM Re: Manual vs Computerised Electrolysis? [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Thanks Seana, but OP said she wanted to clear the area really fast in the first 1-2 clearances but never talked about using flash (which in terms of speed only could be faster) and I just wanted to know the reason.

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