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#126649 - 05/14/18 04:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
I think it's not a case of believing the work as hairtell is replete with examples of the efficacy of Josefas work, more so where are the hidden hairs? This is what he asked and he's just a little confused.

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#126650 - 05/14/18 05:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
Fair enough.

I can see you have a lot of just emerging hairs in the first photo. How long had you left the area alone for before the first treatment?

For zapmyface: From my understanding, Josefa has said that if a client presents with a body area that hasn't had any kind of hair removal for coming up to 6 month + then approx 85-90% of the total active follicles will have hairs (mostly telogen and some anagen) present. So in a perfect scenario, if ALL these follicles are treated and all are destroyed, by 3 months later the only hairs that will be present were those 10-20% that weren't present at the first clearance.
But let's say, more realistically, about 10% of the present hairs don't get treated (either they are missed due to swelling or the follicle is not destroyed). So, 3 months later,you will have the 10-20% that weren't present plus that 10%.

In NARMA's case the hairs are nice and thick, I would expect that it's possible to completely clear all at the first treatment. My sister's case was very similar.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126651 - 05/14/18 06:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By stoppit&tidyup
Fair enough.

I can see you have a lot of just emerging hairs in the first photo. How long had you left the area alone for before the first treatment?

For zapmyface: From my understanding, Josefa has said that if a client presents with a body area that hasn't had any kind of hair removal for coming up to 6 month + then approx 85-90% of the total active follicles will have hairs (mostly telogen and some anagen) present. So in a perfect scenario, if ALL these follicles are treated and all are destroyed, by 3 months later the only hairs that will be present were those 10-20% that weren't present at the first clearance.
But let's say, more realistically, about 10% of the present hairs don't get treated (either they are missed due to swelling or the follicle is not destroyed). So, 3 months later,you will have the 10-20% that weren't present plus that 10%.

In NARMA's case the hairs are nice and thick, I would expect that it's possible to completely clear all at the first treatment. My sister's case was very similar.


The hair in this area was only ever trimmed. The emerging hair may have been hair that was growing back/broken? The feet especially the toe areas rub on socks and footwear itself, the friction has to be taken into account also, do you agree?


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/14/18 06:16 PM)

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#126653 - 05/14/18 06:24 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
Yes, that would explain it.

I'm not sure about friction being a factor unless the hairs were fine and shallow.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126654 - 05/14/18 06:38 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
I just read a bit more, Seana gave a great explanation.

I see the point of contention is the 50%. But it doesn't really matter. The first clearance wouldn't produce such obvious results if only 50% were present, so the client would need at least a second clearance but again, all else equal, the total treatment time over the two sessions would be the same.

I understand why it's irritating that clients focus on numbers but it IS important for us. Because the numbers end up in how much time and money are being spent.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126655 - 05/14/18 11:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
From my perspective (40+ years and thousands of patients), I keep it simple.

If, for example, I give an estimate of 12 hours for a person's body section, that's a number they can rely on. I tell all clients that the first clearance will result in 50% visual reduction. Why? Who knows what they're doing ... or have done? Many factors influence the number of hairs seen at the first clearance.

Even in a never-shaved area, these numbers are significantly affected by many factors and change during a person's lifetime. The ratio of anagen/telogen and exogen hairs. Areas that could be abraded, such as toes. Previous waxing or shaving? ... Still, none of it really matters, and I see no need to go into lengthy explanations when the end result will be the same anyway.

If I were to give a lengthy discussion, the "bean counters" would undoubtedly count the hairs and then be irritated (or happy) that the numbers didn't match what I'd promised. Nonsense.

What difference does it make, and why would I spend time literally "counting hairs?" Sometimes we get amazing results with the first clearance ... other times only so-so. In the long-run, if they keep to the program they will achieve the desired results within the given time (money) estimate.

I will say that in more than 40-years of practice and full involvement in this field, this was the first time I've been called a liar. I am a lot of things ... but that's not one of them.

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#126656 - 05/15/18 04:04 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
It's a pragmatic approach.

The problem is, for most of us, we will never encounter a local electrologist who can give any kind of estimate. Usually, because they themselves have no idea because they do not know which of their treated follicles have been destroyed.

Josefa's approach is a little different sometimes, we know. I think that's partly because of and reserved for clients that are travelling a long distance to see her and may only ever be able to come for the first clearance. Therefore they want to see the maximum results from that single clearance.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126658 - 05/15/18 08:19 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Checking my files and I have only three local clients. Farthest away at the moment: Australia. Getting the maximum results doesn't depend on the distance the patient is traveling.

Five years ago my Norwegian client said he had done "nothing" to his hairs (as I had instructed). But when he got here, I could see he'd shaved about 4-weeks earlier ... and thus I was not able to get all the hairs the first "go." I couldn't very well send him home for a few more weeks?

Now the more important issue: YES all electrologists can give estimates. Their estimate should be ONLY based on the averages of their own work. For example, let's say I have a client from another country that wants back work (or any area). The correct questions for the new client is: "What is you average for this area?" Now, that's a question! Not: "How many hairs are in resting stage?"

If your therapist has been working, say, 10-years, she can look at her files and do a simple rendering of the figures. (Photos helps to establish a variance: more or less than the average.)

I outline this in my "Strategy" book and the point is that there ARE "Standards of Practice" ... the electrologist's standards ONLY!

Seana recommended the huge "Canadian ... Meharg ... textbook" and if you care to "count hairs" it's all in there: charts and all (I don't "buy" any of it). If any of you come up with a truly definitive answer, that will be lovely ... so far, I can't! But I CAN do averages. And, so can all of us!

And, that's the "Truff!"

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#126659 - 05/15/18 08:40 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Just for "shits and giggles" let me say that after this uncomfortable happenstance (as you might say "replete with accusations") it will be a cold day in Hell if I ever offer any actual estimates on-line.

Trying to navigate this mine-field only garners the ire of electrologists (hate mail) and on-line clients (name-calling). When I have real clients, then I will do a lengthy vetting ... for them, AND for me. But this asinine punishment, from attempting to help, no longer works for me (and is probably why few electrologists dare-the-drama of Hairtell, et. al.)

"Where have all the elctrologists gone?" Well, not here anyway.

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#126660 - 05/15/18 10:16 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
I've been busily recruiting new ones. Had you not noticed?
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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