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#126573 - 05/12/18 09:06 AM Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Hi All

Test: I'd be interested in your many professional opinions for work on the toes of the feet. Laser? Electrolysis? Time required? Clearances? Efficacy? Permanancy? Skin changes?

Please find attached the link below:








https://postimg.cc/gallery/gzzo1u88/

History of hair removal in these areas: Trimming only.


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/12/18 12:37 PM)

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#126576 - 05/12/18 10:07 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
dimi Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 121
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Easy treated with electrolysis.
Required 3 clearances spread apart in 2-3 months to catch all hair growth cycles.Outcome-permanent.Skin change-none, only temporary side effects.

Laser outcome- unknown.Posible laser induced hair growth.

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#126577 - 05/12/18 10:11 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
With electrolysis:

I'd say roughly 3 - 5 clearances with a TTT of 6 - 10 hours (est. on the high side). Furthermore, with 99% certainty, you will have PIH, post inflammatory hyperpigmentation (little post-treatment dark spots) that will last up to a year; and go away totally. For a while, the spots will look like you still have hair.

Well-performed electrolysis will render your feet permanently hair-free for the rest of your life ... guaranteed.

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#126578 - 05/12/18 10:38 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Deedra Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9702
Loc: United States
I second those facts! You can bet on electrolysis, in any form, to give you permanent hair removal.

I personally like high intensity thermolysis with quick timing for this area because this area can sensitive. For sensation issues, it's like pulling the band-aid off quickly and most clients like that approach, by zapping the area "quick like a bunny!".

YES, expect some temporary skin side effects, especially, post inflammatory hyperpigmentation (brown dots). Depending on your immune system and the amount of energy needed to make the hair slide, these brown dots may take several weeks? months? or even a year to fade away. THEY WILL FADE AWAY, so don't flip out if this is how your skin reacts. It will be all worth it and you will have clear, hairless skin for the rest of your life.
_________________________
Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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#126580 - 05/12/18 10:52 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Great feedback. Keep it coming...

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#126581 - 05/12/18 11:02 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Yeah! Nicely, we have identified the most likely "side effect." When patients are told ... they are less likely to panic. Eyes wide open! Please, fellow zappers, full disclosure will make everybody's life so much easier!

My UCLA eye surgeon was not so forth coming. I wanted the pre- and post-op instructions (in writing) but his staff would not send them to me (never responded to calls or three letters over a 4-week period).

So, I drove to UCLA (100 miles in the L.A. freeway nightmare) and got the documents (post-op only). It comprised 3-pages (single spaced) of post-op instructions and side-effects. A monumental list, including laying on my face for three days (day and night), no driving in a car for three weeks, no swimming for a month (the worst one for me), pain and bleeding from the eye ... etc.

Q. How was I supposed to drive back to Santa Barbara (100 miles) "on my face?" Maybe strapped to the hood like the old Pontiac Indian hood ornament?

I quit! (I also quit, because they had me scheduled for a heart valve replacement). Great surgeon. The staff was very nice but ridiculous (not one was a native English speaker, and I could hardly understand them). Lucky I quit, because the UCLA nursing staff (most of them) went out on STRIKE! UCLA is a medical factory.

(So, I'm back to surgeon "Steve Couvillion." Fun, I suppose, because I taught him how to sail when he was 12-years-old and I was 24.) Hope he remembers it's my "Starboard" (not "Port") eye!

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#126582 - 05/12/18 12:33 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Michael are you suggesting to share the work out over the 3-5 clearances?

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#126590 - 05/13/18 04:30 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Is someone able to give me an estimation on what percentage of hairs are present at the time of the photo?

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#126592 - 05/13/18 09:14 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I think I know what you're asking!

By clearances, they mean get rid of all the hairs in the area 3-5 times, not one pass that will take 3-5 appointments. Depending on the electrologist, not every hair will be killed after a zap (it will regrow), that's why you're gonna have to come back a few times.

And like you said, there are also several hidden hairs at any time. I tried to find the percentage (on my face) and I'm pretty sure there were at least 40% hidden, but the body is probably different. I don't think there's a way to know for sure, plus I can't seem to find too much info on this...


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 09:19 AM)

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#126593 - 05/13/18 10:05 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Interesting, I don't believe Michael's reply to be deliberately vague just my flawed understanding. From my understanding one clearance is removal of all hair present. Second clearance is all hair present after first clearance etc. If electrolysis can destroy the hair first time around why 3-5 clearances? Assuming you have a good electrologist. Unless it's due to reaction etc which is what I'm trying to ascertain.

You make a good point with regards hair in different areas on body (hormones/genetics)

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#126594 - 05/13/18 10:09 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Whilst we have fun conversations, "Zapmyface" your post illustrates this electrologists eternal frustration with Hairtell: patients offering suggestions/data/definitive answers to other patient's questions; that are inherently incorrect/misleading or even dangerous.

Except for Dee (decades of experience) and Seana (new to the trade), here are virtually no electrologists on this forum because of this one salient reality.

It's like this, after explaining something 350,000 times (to newbies) you can't "freakin" do it anymore. Sure, it sounds new to "y'all" ... it's ancient history to me (us). I know the answer, but won't "go there" for the one-thousandth time. One answer creates five more questions, and on-and-on.

For example somebody, again, is going to post about the horrors of those "permanent" dark dots. Every electrologist will read it and think, "Oh, not this shit again!"

What about a forum that has, for example, a REAL dermatologist that can answer "skin questions" once-and-for-all ... instead of the "pissing in the wind" that is the foundation of most on-line forums? It's something that MIGHT happen in the getting-more-distant future.

Here's the deal: TALK TO YOUR ELECTROLOGIST! Go there first and ask your questions. Maybe read something or watch some videos. If it doesn't make sense, then go to the internet and "ask the world!" That's what I do! (Yeah, I know, people don't read and they want quick answers ... won't watch entire 10-minute videos either.)

Is this what they call a "Mic drop?"

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#126595 - 05/13/18 10:30 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Answer: go on-line and look-up "hair shedding cycle." Therein lies your answer.

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#126596 - 05/13/18 10:33 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Thank you Michael we got there in the end. Are you able to give an estimation of the hair present in the photo?

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#126598 - 05/13/18 10:56 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
What was incorrect in what I said? You don't necessarily have to explain but you could simply tell me what part.

If it's about that ''100% kill rate'' nonsense again I'm gonna have to argue about it... Not because I think that you're wrong, but because of the reality that not every electrologist is as good or experienced as you. You might do that 3 clearance method, but wouldn't you say that what (most?) people experience with other electrologists is much different?

Actually when I answer those types of question, I exactly think about how tiring it must be to explain the same thing over and over, which is why I'm trying to lift some work off the pro's shoulders sort of speak. Granted it's my understanding of it so it could be inherently flawed, however I'm always here to learn.

If you were talking about the % of hidden hairs, I've honestly never seen any numbers about it anywhere (or if I did it was pretty vague). Is this in your book?

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#126599 - 05/13/18 11:16 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Yep, in the book(s) ... mine and all the others: front and center.

I think it's about who/what y'all want to be: informed patients (getting good work), becoming an electrologist, the love/fun of "advice giving" (?).

I don't want to quell anybody's enthusiasm, but the answers are there if a person takes the time to read. Imagine going on an automotive blog and asking, "Why do I have to change the oil?" Then followed by, "What is a piston ring?" Followed by, "How does and IC engine work?"

Still, the best option is to ask your electrologist first. Sure many ARE dolts and have read little-to-nothing themselves, (God bless the unlicensed States!). Maybe asking them pointed questions MIGHT encourage them to do a little reading/studying too? I'm doubtful though ... "don't confuse me with the facts!"

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#126600 - 05/13/18 11:42 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Well my enthusiasm comes from conflicting or vague answers from different electrologists or sources, I'd love to know the truth, that's it. Coincidentally I got conflicting answers with dermatologists too. Which is why I've learned to have extreme skepticism over beauty-related subjects (and why I'm doing my own tests for the most important questions I've got).

You'd be surprised to know that I've read quite a bit of free sources already (and watched all your videos as far as I remember), but I agree that I should probably get on with those more in depth books like yours or Hinkel's (edit: actually I've been reading it for an hour now, I WILL FINISH IT AS SOON AS I CAN!)

I guess Seana was right all along in saying what everyone else was thinking. I'll stop giving my very ''adapted for the client from a client'' simple advice (that I still think I'm right about, at least in my own personal reality of electro).

Actually I'm still unsure as to what I've said was incorrect, anybody else that's not tired of answering those questions can explain? (no rude intent here, I completely understand why some won't)


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 12:50 PM)

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#126602 - 05/13/18 12:55 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Now, that's a reasonable question: "How many hairs in the photo?"

Simple: if you have not shaved (or plucked) the area you are looking at (plus/minus)40% -to- (maximum)50% of the follicles in the area.

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#126603 - 05/13/18 01:53 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Thank you Michael

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#126605 - 05/13/18 03:02 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Answer: Opinions are subjective the "Proof is in the pudding". Please see photo below taken in May 2018.



Long answer: Toes treated using Electrolysis (flash thermolysis) in July 2012. One clearance only. Time taken to treat both feet approximately 60 minutes. As you can see considering the time elapsed (6 Years) all hairs treated have not returned, skin condition has actually improved. No other method of hair removal used in the period.

Point of this thread: Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. Sessions need not to be planned, you can get it right first time independent of the phase with a competent electrologist, in this case Josefa M Reina.

Forgive me for initially feigning ignorance, it was necessary for me to achieve my goal and showcase the results. Looking forward to your responses. At least we can be united on applauding the results right? smile

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#126606 - 05/13/18 03:24 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
WE'VE ALL BEEN FOOLED LOL I'M SCREAMING AT MY SCREEN!!!

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#126607 - 05/13/18 03:30 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
This proves my point I think though, not everyone will have this achieved in 1 clearance (or even 3-5). This is actually what irks me about electrologists (conflicting results and answers). I can guarantee you that you'd spend several clearances (10+) and several total hours (10+?) with the electrologist that did a chunk of my face (not you Dimi : ). And I never thought she was bad, just wondered if it was efficient or not.

So how the f*** can someone do this in one simple 30min clearance when others have to spend 10x more money and time for the same results?!


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 03:32 PM)

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#126608 - 05/13/18 03:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
What do you think of the results? wink

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#126609 - 05/13/18 03:35 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
You won't like me but I'm actually very annoyed by the results. I'm happy for you though.

I just wanna add that I consider most electrologists pretty good (all have pros and cons), but I have a fascination with efficiency.

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#126610 - 05/13/18 04:08 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By zapmyface
This proves my point I think though, not everyone will have this achieved in 1 clearance (or even 3-5). This is actually what irks me about electrologists (conflicting results and answers). I can guarantee you that you'd spend several clearances (10+) and several total hours (10+?) with the electrologist that did a chunk of my face (not you Dimi : ). And I never thought she was bad, just wondered if it was efficient or not.

So how the f*** can someone do this in one simple 30min clearance when others have to spend 10x more money and time for the same results?!


Lol. Brilliant right, are you a believer now? Get it right first time? Good question, I could sit here and tell you although I feel that would be minimizing Josefas dedication and skill set and I have no authority over this. I hope she can make an appearance and discuss further the results for us, enlighten both new and old members of this forum.

Your fascination is a noble pursuit, I've always found her very personable and willing to share her knowledge, the problem may be other electrologists who are not receptive to taking time to understand through the rigours of research and application, which culminates in lesser results quite frankly.

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#126611 - 05/13/18 04:37 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'm glad you told us it was my beloved Josefa. (I thought so!)

Here's what you have to understand. When a patient asks questions such as "how long ... etc.," on this blog ... I think about the reality of the work that most will encounter. So, the parameters are wide.

Were you to ask me what I personally would do ... well, that's a different answer.

You will need two more clearance to get 100% of the hairs. This photo looks great and thanks for it.

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#126612 - 05/13/18 04:58 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
I'm glad you told us it was my beloved Josefa. (I thought so!)

Here's what you have to understand. When a patient asks questions such as "how long ... etc.," on this blog ... I think about the reality of the work that most will encounter. So, the parameters are wide.

Were you to ask me what I personally would do ... well, that's a different answer.

You will need two more clearance to get 100% of the hairs. This photo looks great and thanks for it.


Not a problem at all, the pleasure is all mine as a happy client. I appreciate your feedback.

It's interesting, I actually consider this 100 % and have no intention to have treatment in this area again. Some clients can be overly particular, I'm not one of them. Other areas that are more visible and hard to manage in terms of maintenance or removal I can understand being particular about.

What would you say the percentage reduction here is Michael?

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#126613 - 05/13/18 05:07 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
To be fair I'll only believe it when I see it on my body, nothing personal against anyone but my brain is wired like that. I'd love to be treated by her and witness it myself actually, but I don't wanna impose since I've heard she has a lot of clients/was retired/no clue how to even ask for treatments.

I've seen a few pictures of Josefa's work on this forum (I remember that 2? clearance post on a male beard that removed a good majority of hair somewhere that impressed me). I'd hate to compare electrologists so I'll just compare stories...

1- Josefa's male beard client:

- I'm assuming 2 travels, 2 clearances, doesn't really matter the length of treatment time (FOR ME)
- Didn't have to think about electro and suffer except on 2 damn travel occasions

Result:

- Majority of his beard gone
- Barely no downtime, suffering or damage RELATIVE to the time elapsed

2- Me:

- 60?+ travels, 50? clearances (granted it's near my house but still)
- Having to think about it and suffer (almost) every week

Result:

- Scars on my face (unnoticeable now but still there)
- 1/4 of my beard is gone, and I'm really being generous, plus a few body areas appearing to be a bit thinned
- Having to constantly think about electro every single damn week causes some ''emotional tiredness'' and motivation goes down the toilet if no end in sight (at that rate it will take what, 5 years or more!?)
- Constant temporary skin reactions (my skin looks like crap for weeks if not months after a treatment, and no I don't even mind... just pointing it out for other people with similar stories)

Am I freaking unlucky or something?! And I know that there are people worse off than me! I'm just pointing out the extreme differences! I didn't include total treatment time because it's really not that important FOR ME (a lot of subjectivity in this post). And before some of you feel sorry for me (or think I'm just lying, that's fine too), please know that I'm actively working towards a better approach/efficiency for myself (been testing for 2 months now and will start again once I'm satisfied with my conclusions).

This is mostly a rant lol, sorry.


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 05:23 PM)

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#126614 - 05/13/18 06:19 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Photos looks like 50 - 60% reduction. And, this is (actually) what body hair should do.

There are ways to "find" your right therapist, and remember it mostly depends on WHO is doing the work. Whenever I'm heading for a procedure of any kind, I literally take a year to make up my mind. Very little depends on "reputation, nice office, degrees, etc."

How "bad" can it get? Some years ago, I went to another country as an expert witness on an underarm case. (I was already there ... so it was easy.) The woman had 240 hours of work on her underarms and the therapist estimated she was "half done."

(I have never exceeded 8 hours and it's usually a 4 - 6 hour job (total). This area is guaranteed


The patient LOST the hearing, because nobody could produce STANDARDS OF PRACTICE. Therein is the number one problem for consumers. No guidelines, no standards ... no "NOTHIN'!"

Imagine if you had a brake job on your car, and the mechanic said, "Well, we can't give you an estimate. Could be $500, could be $5,000!" Instead, mechanics have their "magic book" that lists the parts and the average hours necessary to do the job. So, mechanics always give you a pretty good estimate.

Standards of Practice for electrology (or laser for that matter), ain't gonna happen. We tried, to no avail. Clients don't know the right questions to ask ... I will get around to it after I get my eye torn out and all healed up.

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#126615 - 05/13/18 06:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By NARMA2018
Answer: Opinions are subjective the "Proof is in the pudding". Please see photo below taken in May 2018.



Long answer: Toes treated using Electrolysis (flash thermolysis) in July 2012. One clearance only. Time taken to treat both feet approximately 60 minutes. As you can see considering the time elapsed (6 Years) all hairs treated have not returned, skin condition has actually improved. No other method of hair removal used in the period.

Point of this thread: Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. Sessions need not to be planned, you can get it right first time independent of the phase with a competent electrologist, in this case Josefa M Reina.

Forgive me for initially feigning ignorance, it was necessary for me to achieve my goal and showcase the results. Looking forward to your responses. At least we can be united on applauding the results right? smile




AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126616 - 05/13/18 06:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Oh I know what questions to ask (you already said it on another post) and I already have my estimate, I just don't think it's efficient compared to you for example. It would truly take 5 years or more to finish my beard at the rate I was going.

The difference between 8 vs 240 hours is disgustingly staggering. Even double the time is unfair enough...

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#126617 - 05/13/18 06:47 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Well my enthusiasm comes from conflicting or vague answers from different electrologists or sources, I'd love to know the truth, that's it. Coincidentally I got conflicting answers with dermatologists too. Which is why I've learned to have extreme skepticism over beauty-related subjects (and why I'm doing my own tests for the most important questions I've got).

You'd be surprised to know that I've read quite a bit of free sources already (and watched all your videos as far as I remember), but I agree that I should probably get on with those more in depth books like yours or Hinkel's (edit: actually I've been reading it for an hour now, I WILL FINISH IT AS SOON AS I CAN!)

I guess Seana was right all along in saying what everyone else was thinking. I'll stop giving my very ''adapted for the client from a client'' simple advice (that I still think I'm right about, at least in my own personal reality of electro).

Actually I'm still unsure as to what I've said was incorrect, anybody else that's not tired of answering those questions can explain? (no rude intent here, I completely understand why some won't)


And this, was the point of my comments to you. It's very difficult to tell you "what's wrong with what your saying " or what part is incorrect, when you dont have a full understanding of the topic. So I've tried to refer you over to those sources that can help with that. I'm afraid my time is limited these days and sometimes, its better that you seek that knowledge from the source than my trying to regurgitate it.

I have a third text I'm going to recommend to you, I want to make sure I have all the information right for it so I'll wait till I'm at the office and have it in my hot little hands.

SO, I know you're resistant to "learning the art of electrology" but the answers you seek, the "big picture" is well part of the art of electrology. I cant teach you everything you need to know, but if you're jumping in to answer qquestions in an effort to be "helpful" well, I can tell you it wasnt that many years ago I got the same reaction to a very similar effort. I can still hear Michael complaining about the "authority" with which I communicated completely incorrect or irrelelvant information. So I'll tell you the same thing the then moderator James Walker told me "We want you asking, and answering , questions." But we also want that information to be correct, and the best way for us to do THAT, is to teach you all about electrology. So that you can see the "big picture".

It's really tempting to jump in with that "one key bit" but I urge you to ask question, rather than authoritive statements. You need to learn how those "key bits" fit in with all the other bits before offering them up as advice.

And I can tell you, that that is EXACTLY how I got my start in electrology.

I'm not really a bitch you know. Well some days I can be, but in general, no.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126618 - 05/13/18 06:57 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
NARMA2018, you only got electro on the toes (and not the midfoot/front), right? If so, I count approximatively 150 visible hairs on those in your ''before'' picture, and around 10 in your ''after''.

I'm no expert, but if we account that a good % (let's say 50% for simplicity) of hairs weren't visible at the time, wouldn't this mean that the total number of hairs would be around 300? And since a 100% ''kill rate'' will only remove the visible hairs (150), wouldn't that mean that there would be 150 remaining? Yet there are only 10 visible ones on the 2nd pic, does that mean 140 are hidden?!

If you truly did only get a single clearance, it would mean that most (if not all) of the hairs were visible when you got treated, and that they pretty much all got successfully zapped, no?

I WANNA GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS... EXPLAIN THAT HAIRTELL!

(Edited for clarity and wrong math on my part)


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 08:07 PM)

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#126619 - 05/13/18 07:04 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Seana, I agree that I need to learn everything about electro (even if I don't necessarily wanna practice it)! I actually started reading Hinkel's book today.

Also, it was never my intention to be knowledgable, I always assumed that everyone knew I was a newbie and was mostly asking questions (there are often interrogations in-between my ''statements'').

In my head I always sound like I'm saying a question or unsure information, but in writing maybe some people saw that I tried to be that annoying person trying to give advice on every single post he saw lol.

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#126620 - 05/13/18 07:08 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Narma, did you have local anesthetic with the procedure?

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#126621 - 05/13/18 08:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Good point. Yes that's my guess too all were visible. For me this is 95 percent plus reduction from what was there originally. Michael 50%?

My theory: You know when killer whales attack a great white and kill it by holding it in tonic immobility essentially suffocating it.
A decaying shark sends a chemical signal to other sharks of the same species to flight instead of fight. The other great whites dive down to unprecedented depths and flee the area. They'd rather dive deep and cross oceans than encounter killer whales. Well, basically the hidden hairs know Josie is around and for the last 6 years reside at unprecedented depths. smile

https://youtu.be/U_j5UC1ykcY

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#126622 - 05/13/18 08:13 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Narma, did you have local anesthetic with the procedure?


That's right Michael with local anaesthetic.

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#126624 - 05/13/18 09:48 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
NArma,
Wow I'm super surprised that you used anesthetic on the toes. I suppose I shouldnt be? While I've had some clients endure endless treatments on the fingers and toes without complaint, I've had others tell me it was very uncomfortable to have done.But I have never had anyone use so much as a topical on their fingers or toes, and it's an area I'm called to work on fairly frequently.

Now the answer to your question zapmyface, how is it Josepha can treat and destroy so many of the hairs at once? The answer, lies in both skill, and implementation.Josepha has brute experience ( over 30 years) which mean she is highly skilled. This skill level is essential to doing that level of work.And it's a matter of targeting the right place with enough energy to accomplish the kill.So , what's the trick?
With any area, Josepha starts by instructing the client to do nothing at all, to the hairs.Not shaved, not waxed ,plucked, just leave the area alone. Areas like fingers and toes, tend to get a lot of hairs staying in the follicle for long periods after their growth cycle.So You'll find a large percentage of hairs in telogen in that area, and only a few in anogen.By instructing the client to not do anything to the area, for up to a year if possible, there will be the maximum number of hairs present to be treated. And Josepha knows she can kill hair in ANY stage of hair growth by targeting the stem cells present in the bulge of the follicle.
So when you combine the maximum number of hair follicles available for treatment with highly skilled insertions targeting the specific area needed to disable the hair, a practised eye able to easily distinguish one hairs growth phase from another prior to epilation , you end up with a higher percentage of the hair follicles killed in a single session.
That'sa little bit, about why people like Michael or Josepha's treatments are able to be done in so few clearances.For the rest, you have to learn how to zap and actually experience it and gain experience like Josepha posesses.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126626 - 05/13/18 10:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I see, while I have no issue believing that she can kill pretty much every hair visible at the time (ok there's a part of me that thinks it's a bit too good to be true, but I'm open to it), wouldn't that prove that there was almost no ''hidden'' hairs at that time.

So this quote from Michael on this same thread is actually false (unless my understanding is false):
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Now, that's a reasonable question: "How many hairs in the photo?"

Simple: if you have not shaved (or plucked) the area you are looking at (plus/minus)40% -to- (maximum)50% of the follicles in the area.


Sorry to put you on the spot Michael, but I need to know the truth!

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#126627 - 05/13/18 10:30 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'm not on the spot, because I don't do "truth." "Truth" is for religions.

Most importantly is the treatment benefit of local anesthetic ... the big "red herring" in electrology. Not just pain, but in the actual treatment itself. This subject deserves a book, say, of about 150 pages.

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#126628 - 05/13/18 10:37 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
[/quote]

Sorry to put you on the spot Michael, but I need to know the truth!
[/quote]

You sound like Mulder from the X-files. You do have a point though.


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/13/18 10:39 PM)

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#126629 - 05/13/18 10:44 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Thing is, I have never been a "bean counter." I'm interested, as I say so often people "roll their eyes," it's the total treatment time that counts ... ONLY! Indeed, some people seem to get better results from one clearance ... others, not so much. However, in 3-shots over, you'll be done.

People want to count hairs ... count seconds ... count the rings of Saturn. It all comes down to the time you take to finish the job. The idea of "truth" seem to connote the notion that somebody is "hiding the truth." Puleeze!

And, putting me in the same sentence with Josefa is not accurate. She has much better results than I do. Looking at that original hairy foot, I'd say I would need 1-hour for ONE foot alone. Maybe I'll look at the photo again, but at the moment I'm too lazy. Been sanding floors all day.

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#126630 - 05/13/18 11:07 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Well it seems like at least one of us 3 has said ''a lie'' (sorry the translation here sounds weird). I'm 100% prepared for it to be me with my possible flawed understanding, but there are other possibilities too... It could be NARMA's deceitful picture (more than one clearance for example), or Michael's statement that approximatively 50% hairs were present at the time (it could be that for toes, the % is much higher, think almost 95%, than other body parts for example).

It might seem trivial for you, but I love little details like these! However I'm wondering if I should stop pushing this further since I've probably annoyed too many people in the past few days already...


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 11:09 PM)

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#126631 - 05/13/18 11:17 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
There's also the possibility that we're all correct and that this specific case was some sort of extreme luck in the sense that at that specific time, all was aligned for all the hairs to be present and Josefa actually killing all of them. That sounds like a good compromise right?

I GOT A BETTER ONE, NARMA IS IN FACT JOSEFA PROMOTING HER SERVICES! I SEE YOU NOW! Just kidding!

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#126632 - 05/13/18 11:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
"Flawed, deceitful, LIES." LIES?? Your words ... damn, what a Schmuck!

You are thinking like an engineer ... humans are biological and cannot be squeezed into your "truth." By the way, there is no way in hell that you'd ever be a client of mine. Just saying.

Over the years, when I dared give my own on-line estimates, I would get real hate mail from other electrologists! One zapper in New York called and screamed on the phone, "How dare you ..." One very graphic lecture to an association resulted in a near riot of animosity ...

So, navigating this sensitive "estimates" subject has to be politically correct, or you will suffer the consequences (Josefa has suffered these too). I try to give "estimates" that are general, and will be satisfactory to other operators; within the scope of probability.

One thing for absolute certain, I will never offer such suggestions again. I don't do "gottcha!" And, I don't count beans! Annoyed? Well, you got that right!

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#126633 - 05/14/18 12:05 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Hey hey now, I've been nothing but respectful to you and everyone and tried to find a good compromise in this thread.

It had nothing to do with your estimates, but simply about the normal amount (or %) of hidden hairs at any given time on a normal human body (or area).

I have no clue about it, which is why I'm trying to find ''the truth'', or some kind of understanding of it. I guess my words didn't translate well since I would never want to annoy anyone...

Actually hearing you say that you wouldn't want me as a client truly makes me feel horrible, since I was hoping I'd get to have a chance with you after you got your surgery. Oh well!

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#126640 - 05/14/18 11:25 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Here's your addition to your reading list:
Cosmetic & Medical Electrolysis & Temporary Hair Removal by Dr . Richards and G.E. MEharg R.N.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126644 - 05/14/18 03:17 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I just read this entire thread again to see what the f*** happened and I've concluded that my personality and ideas aren't too welcomed on this forum. If I ever decide to start electro again I'll be sure to never ask any questions and try to not care as much, it's for the best!

Best wishes to all, see ya!

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#126646 - 05/14/18 03:44 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
I read a couple of posts only.

Seems like zapmyface has a hard time believing Josefa's work. But that's why she's Josefa. I think the biggest hurdle in other electrologist's results being incomparable is because they don't know that this kind of work is possible and how to go about achieving it. How many years have we been on HairTell for now? And in this time did Josefa EVER stop trying to improve her own work? She tried and tested Laurier probes everyone else was too sceptical about the improvements they offer to bother. All the people I know personally (including my own family members) have been happy with 1-2 clearances for body work.

For me, Michael quotes a (still respectable) 3-5 clearances to accommodate the fact that not every electrologist is going to kill every hair they treat. Not every client is going to show up with an area they haven't touched in 6 months prior. Not every first clearance is going to clear 100% of the hairs in the area even if said client does. However, assuming hairs removed/min is roughly the same between two electrologists, the TTT should be roughly the same.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126647 - 05/14/18 03:54 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
omg stop taking it personally. I just told you, we WANT you asking questions,we want you to dig out those fears. I can personally tell you, that it was exactlythe same when I came here with all of my fears,preconceptions, and hunt for knowledge. Not welcomed?Nonsense! You've been told countless times to challenge those notions you dont understand and question. Believe me when I tell you, there is no one here going "We arent gonna welcome this person because they question everything".
I've tried to guide you in a posative direction and outlet for those questions and insecurities.

Years ago, Dee challenged some factoid I was talking about. I remember commenting to Michael( privately)that I believed Dee hated me. Michael was quick to point out this was far from the case, and in fact,he was Right, Dee is a sweetheart and one of my favourite professionals to work with.It's easy to take offense in a text only medium when vocal and visual cues that indicate a different inflection are absent.

Stop being offended!No offense has been taken by anyone here.

Your entrance into hairtell reminds me a LOT of my own some years ago. Complete with the same "everyone is against me" insecurities. Truth be told, more than a few of them were rooting for me, not being dismissive. I see that same passion in you, which is why I've done my best to encourage you.
Dont let the internal gremlins, over-rule that passion.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126648 - 05/14/18 03:57 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Well it seems like at least one of us 3 has said ''a lie'' (sorry the translation here sounds weird). I'm 100% prepared for it to be me with my possible flawed understanding, but there are other possibilities too... It could be NARMA's deceitful picture (more than one clearance for example), or Michael's statement that approximatively 50% hairs were present at the time (it could be that for toes, the % is much higher, think almost 95%, than other body parts for example).

It might seem trivial for you, but I love little details like these! However I'm wondering if I should stop pushing this further since I've probably annoyed too many people in the past few days already...


That's understandable. Perspective is a great thing, which is why I understand you. There is a lot of charlatans out there, everyone has their presentiments and you should not be admonished for them. That being said I am not one of them nor do I consider lying to be the staple of my diet, nor am I offended easily by your suggestions even if others consider them abhorrent. So staying true to myself and objectivity continue reading.

I can tell you that only one clearance was necessary. Josefa gets it right first time. You make a good point about the hidden hairs etc, Josie will be able to explain this more effectively with clarity.

Just be patient and check back to this thread eventually all will be made clear.


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/14/18 04:00 PM)

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#126649 - 05/14/18 04:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
I think it's not a case of believing the work as hairtell is replete with examples of the efficacy of Josefas work, more so where are the hidden hairs? This is what he asked and he's just a little confused.

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#126650 - 05/14/18 05:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
Fair enough.

I can see you have a lot of just emerging hairs in the first photo. How long had you left the area alone for before the first treatment?

For zapmyface: From my understanding, Josefa has said that if a client presents with a body area that hasn't had any kind of hair removal for coming up to 6 month + then approx 85-90% of the total active follicles will have hairs (mostly telogen and some anagen) present. So in a perfect scenario, if ALL these follicles are treated and all are destroyed, by 3 months later the only hairs that will be present were those 10-20% that weren't present at the first clearance.
But let's say, more realistically, about 10% of the present hairs don't get treated (either they are missed due to swelling or the follicle is not destroyed). So, 3 months later,you will have the 10-20% that weren't present plus that 10%.

In NARMA's case the hairs are nice and thick, I would expect that it's possible to completely clear all at the first treatment. My sister's case was very similar.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126651 - 05/14/18 06:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By stoppit&tidyup
Fair enough.

I can see you have a lot of just emerging hairs in the first photo. How long had you left the area alone for before the first treatment?

For zapmyface: From my understanding, Josefa has said that if a client presents with a body area that hasn't had any kind of hair removal for coming up to 6 month + then approx 85-90% of the total active follicles will have hairs (mostly telogen and some anagen) present. So in a perfect scenario, if ALL these follicles are treated and all are destroyed, by 3 months later the only hairs that will be present were those 10-20% that weren't present at the first clearance.
But let's say, more realistically, about 10% of the present hairs don't get treated (either they are missed due to swelling or the follicle is not destroyed). So, 3 months later,you will have the 10-20% that weren't present plus that 10%.

In NARMA's case the hairs are nice and thick, I would expect that it's possible to completely clear all at the first treatment. My sister's case was very similar.


The hair in this area was only ever trimmed. The emerging hair may have been hair that was growing back/broken? The feet especially the toe areas rub on socks and footwear itself, the friction has to be taken into account also, do you agree?


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/14/18 06:16 PM)

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#126653 - 05/14/18 06:24 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
Yes, that would explain it.

I'm not sure about friction being a factor unless the hairs were fine and shallow.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126654 - 05/14/18 06:38 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
I just read a bit more, Seana gave a great explanation.

I see the point of contention is the 50%. But it doesn't really matter. The first clearance wouldn't produce such obvious results if only 50% were present, so the client would need at least a second clearance but again, all else equal, the total treatment time over the two sessions would be the same.

I understand why it's irritating that clients focus on numbers but it IS important for us. Because the numbers end up in how much time and money are being spent.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126655 - 05/14/18 11:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
From my perspective (40+ years and thousands of patients), I keep it simple.

If, for example, I give an estimate of 12 hours for a person's body section, that's a number they can rely on. I tell all clients that the first clearance will result in 50% visual reduction. Why? Who knows what they're doing ... or have done? Many factors influence the number of hairs seen at the first clearance.

Even in a never-shaved area, these numbers are significantly affected by many factors and change during a person's lifetime. The ratio of anagen/telogen and exogen hairs. Areas that could be abraded, such as toes. Previous waxing or shaving? ... Still, none of it really matters, and I see no need to go into lengthy explanations when the end result will be the same anyway.

If I were to give a lengthy discussion, the "bean counters" would undoubtedly count the hairs and then be irritated (or happy) that the numbers didn't match what I'd promised. Nonsense.

What difference does it make, and why would I spend time literally "counting hairs?" Sometimes we get amazing results with the first clearance ... other times only so-so. In the long-run, if they keep to the program they will achieve the desired results within the given time (money) estimate.

I will say that in more than 40-years of practice and full involvement in this field, this was the first time I've been called a liar. I am a lot of things ... but that's not one of them.

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#126656 - 05/15/18 04:04 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1822
Loc: London, UK
It's a pragmatic approach.

The problem is, for most of us, we will never encounter a local electrologist who can give any kind of estimate. Usually, because they themselves have no idea because they do not know which of their treated follicles have been destroyed.

Josefa's approach is a little different sometimes, we know. I think that's partly because of and reserved for clients that are travelling a long distance to see her and may only ever be able to come for the first clearance. Therefore they want to see the maximum results from that single clearance.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126658 - 05/15/18 08:19 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Checking my files and I have only three local clients. Farthest away at the moment: Australia. Getting the maximum results doesn't depend on the distance the patient is traveling.

Five years ago my Norwegian client said he had done "nothing" to his hairs (as I had instructed). But when he got here, I could see he'd shaved about 4-weeks earlier ... and thus I was not able to get all the hairs the first "go." I couldn't very well send him home for a few more weeks?

Now the more important issue: YES all electrologists can give estimates. Their estimate should be ONLY based on the averages of their own work. For example, let's say I have a client from another country that wants back work (or any area). The correct questions for the new client is: "What is you average for this area?" Now, that's a question! Not: "How many hairs are in resting stage?"

If your therapist has been working, say, 10-years, she can look at her files and do a simple rendering of the figures. (Photos helps to establish a variance: more or less than the average.)

I outline this in my "Strategy" book and the point is that there ARE "Standards of Practice" ... the electrologist's standards ONLY!

Seana recommended the huge "Canadian ... Meharg ... textbook" and if you care to "count hairs" it's all in there: charts and all (I don't "buy" any of it). If any of you come up with a truly definitive answer, that will be lovely ... so far, I can't! But I CAN do averages. And, so can all of us!

And, that's the "Truff!"

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#126659 - 05/15/18 08:40 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Just for "shits and giggles" let me say that after this uncomfortable happenstance (as you might say "replete with accusations") it will be a cold day in Hell if I ever offer any actual estimates on-line.

Trying to navigate this mine-field only garners the ire of electrologists (hate mail) and on-line clients (name-calling). When I have real clients, then I will do a lengthy vetting ... for them, AND for me. But this asinine punishment, from attempting to help, no longer works for me (and is probably why few electrologists dare-the-drama of Hairtell, et. al.)

"Where have all the elctrologists gone?" Well, not here anyway.

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#126660 - 05/15/18 10:16 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
I've been busily recruiting new ones. Had you not noticed?
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126661 - 05/15/18 11:28 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Electrologists "leaving" hairtell because of pressure over their opinions from either consumers,or other electrologists. Gee, I wouldnt know anything about that smile ( tongue firmly planted in cheek in case the sarcasm isnt properly conveyed) .

People "running off" because they got butthurt over having those opinions challenged.(insert sarcasm) I wouldnt know anything about that either because text always communicates inflection.
.Sure is hard to stand up for ones opinions around here isnt it?

Then there's idiots like me and you Michael. And Josepha, and Dee, and Beate, and Dimi , heck I've seen Christine OConnell post recently. Like moths to a flame, we keep coming back. Why is that?
Because hairtell, and the interaction between consumer and electrologist that we all LOVE to hate.....gets under your skin. You cant help yourself. You Michael see a big juicy well thought out question, and really, you cant help yourself. You jump in there.
I dont think we've seen the last of zapmyface either. I'll be very disappointed if that's the case.
But we dont get to ask the questiions, or censor what is asked. zapmyface has the questions he has, because that's how his mind works. It doesnt matter that you "dont like the questions" or feel that to answer them is beneath you, he still has those questions, the "how comes" .
Long ago I gave you a label. I think you earned it with zapmyface. His questions werent "wrong" and to tell him that he would never be a client of yours, I think was a little hurtful. Actually I think he kind of idolized your opinions and interactions, and I dont think you were fair with him. I think a better wayto handle questions you dont want to answer is to just not answer them, then to do whats happened here.

But what do I know.I'm just an amatuer!

Seana




Edited by Iluv2zap (05/15/18 11:57 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126662 - 05/15/18 12:15 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Seana ... YEAH!

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#126665 - 05/15/18 01:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Scurvy Offline
Contributor

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 27
I'm assuming there's some aspect of you all wanting to do the right thing by your profession. Within the hair removal industry more broadly, and more specifically within electrolysis, there is so much ignorance and misinformation and never enough people to dispel all of it.

I (maybe wrongly?) assume that's why Michael used to receive hate mail from other electrologists and clients of other electrologists -- ignorance and misinformation. As a consumer, who one day has hopes of doing electrology, I have heard from electrologists and other consumers who still believe that hairs must be in the right growth stage to be treated, that each hair must be treated several times, and that galvanic is the only "true" electrolysis that can deliver results.

And that's just the beginning.

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#126666 - 05/15/18 02:46 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Scurvy .... HELL YES!

Now, think about this ... me "doing this" for 43-years and getting the same "bazunka." Still coming from schools and manufactures too. But as Seana has said, I need to just "suck it up" and take a vacation; a long one. Okay, not the exact works but the good meaning of it.

I now average three emails per day from clients with "marks" from electrolysis. I don't know what to do or say any more. Maybe I'm just too damned old ... probably so. I'm already in telogen ... with exogen close at hand.

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#126668 - 05/15/18 04:12 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By NARMA2018


I hope she can make an appearance and discuss further the results for us ...



Those results have surprised me as much as others. As with any other case of "untouched" hair, I was able to predict a high percentage of elimination, but honestly, not to this degree.

If I had been asked for an estimate regarding the number of necessary clearances, my response would have been similar to that of some of my colleagues. 3 clearings with an interval of 3 or 4 months. It is obvious that we can all make mistakes, but it is always wiser to offer a realistic perspective than to be too optimistic and disappoint the expectations.

What happened here? frankly, I do not know. If there is no risk of overtreatment, I always try to leave as few untreated hairs as possible. With such a high density of hair present and such deep roots, I tend to be very cautious with my settings, but who knows, maybe the treatment affected adjacent follicles?

According to Hinkel himself, this is plausible. Of course, in his book he refers to another modality, the Blend. However, this work was done with only HF (flash).
So ... what is the explanation?

The key is at the point of this thread. 1) Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. 2) A single clearance will achieve a certain percentage of permanent reduction that will depend on the percentage of hairs present and the skill of the operator.

Last but not least, I never heard from this client again until I saw the "after" picture. There was never a single message indicating concern about inflammation, redness, crusting, hyperpigmentation, etc. Nothing!. And believe me, I would bet my life that there must have been a lot of all these side effects.

For that, a big THANK YOU!

Note: The treated area was only toes.


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#126669 - 05/15/18 05:36 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina
Originally Posted By NARMA2018


I hope she can make an appearance and discuss further the results for us ...



Those results have surprised me as much as others. As with any other case of "untouched" hair, I was able to predict a high percentage of elimination, but honestly, not to this degree.

If I had been asked for an estimate regarding the number of necessary clearances, my response would have been similar to that of some of my colleagues. 3 clearings with an interval of 3 or 4 months. It is obvious that we can all make mistakes, but it is always wiser to offer a realistic perspective than to be too optimistic and disappoint the expectations.

What happened here? frankly, I do not know. If there is no risk of overtreatment, I always try to leave as few untreated hairs as possible. With such a high density of hair present and such deep roots, I tend to be very cautious with my settings, but who knows, maybe the treatment affected adjacent follicles?

According to Hinkel himself, this is plausible. Of course, in his book he refers to another modality, the Blend. However, this work was done with only HF (flash).
So ... what is the explanation?

The key is at the point of this thread. 1) Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. 2) A single clearance will achieve a certain percentage of permanent reduction that will depend on the percentage of hairs present and the skill of the operator.

Last but not least, I never heard from this client again until I saw the "after" picture. There was never a single message indicating concern about inflammation, redness, crusting, hyperpigmentation, etc. Nothing!. And believe me, I would bet my life that there must have been a lot of all these side effects.

For that, a big THANK YOU!

Note: The treated area was only toes.



Great evaluation and backed up with research and experience, a humble opinion worth having and sharing. Thank you Josie for both the excellent treatment and knowledge.

This area developed small blisters, some hyperpigmentation which resided after a month and a half. Swelling was very minimal next to zero, apparantly unusually.

After two months they looked completely normal without side effects, the skin healed quite fast without use of creams etc. This area is generally hidden so not overly concerned with side effects, a friend of mine whom had electrolysis from Josefa showcased his scabbing/hyperpigmentation to me which all disappeared, so I was confident in my treatment/electrologist.

For those considering electrolysis this may be a great reminder to go on referrals in the first instance as opposed to photos etc if you're fortunate enough to know someone who has/is getting good results as you can follow their treatment results/temporary side effects.

This, in my opinion is a better way to inform yourself and allay fears than talking to your electrologist as Michael mentioned, nothing beats a live stream.

This forum is how my friend came across Josefa in the first place. I hope this thread can help someone as a pleased client and testimony to Josefas work.

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#126743 - 05/23/18 11:18 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I hate when people misinterpret what I'm saying so I'll just come back for a sec to be very clear.

To Seana:

I'm ''butthurt'' because I'm pointing out flaws between people's opinion or facts (not just this thread) and I'm the one suffering the consequences for it. If anything it's others that feel offended in my pursuit of ''the truth'', not me.

To Michael:

First of all I never called you a liar, where did you read that exactly? I never attacked you or your ''estimates'', at least that's not how I see it.

I was under the impression that the ''% of hidden hairs'' was something established already on a normal body (or parts of the body). Look, when you said that there was 40 to 50% of hairs present in the pic, I assumed it was the norm on toes, and since it made no sense how most of the hairs were gone after only 1 clearance according to everyone's statements, I had to call it out, that's it!

If this was simply an ''estimate'' on your part, I was the one who misinterpreted the whole thing. But either way, what's wrong in calling out a clearly wrong estimate or an established fact? Since you were a little rude, allow me to return the favour: Did your ego get in the way? Going off on me like that and barring me from your practice really wasn't necessary.



To everyone else:

It's not that I don't believe in Josefa's work, but COMPARED to some other treatments I've heard about, or experienced myself, it seems absurd how she can be this fast with this little regrowth. I'm GLAD if this is truly the case, but you can see why one would at least have some reservations (or should I say jealousy) over it. I honestly just wanted to understand why or how there was such a huge difference between some electrologists (or even some treatments with the same electrologist since Josefa herself was surprised at the results), that's it!

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#126744 - 05/24/18 01:03 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By zapmyface


To Seana:

I'm ''butthurt'' because I'm pointing out flaws between people's opinion or facts (not just this thread) and I'm the one suffering the consequences for it. If anything it's others that feel offended in my pursuit of ''the truth'', not me.


I'm glad you came back around, regardless.

Having you around it's a bit like the kid who read the coles notes on debate, joining the debate team.I know you are just
trying to work your brain around the details,but this is what I'm talking about when I say the "art" of electrolysis.
Nearly everything we discuss, is un-measureable.It's all subjective opinion for the most part.
Because As Josepha points out, even she can have better or worse results.
It truly is art in it's finest form, and Josepha is an old master.That's the "how come" .And yes, she has hadplenty of people call her a liar, (or a lot worse) but the results, speak to themselves.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126768 - 05/26/18 08:12 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
My dear Seana, my skin has become quite thick lately. There are those who call it "survival instinct".

I have been accused of so many things: lying in my "before & after" cases; press and blackmail clients in exchange for permission to use their photos; lack of professionalism and transparency; and a very funny that begins to become a habit, use false identities to promote my services in Hairtell, WOW!!!... not to mention others that at this moment I can not remember.

Zapmyface, let me tell you what is for me utterly absurd in this "charming" profession. What is really absurd is that a professional with 20, 30, or 40 years of career is not able to foresee and guarantee the results of her/his own work with an almost mathematical precision when conditions permit. Conditions that have been discussed many times here, but that I can repeat one more time: a) Start the treatments with a maximum of hairs present on the surface of the skin, b) Carry out precise insertions, and c) Zero traction for absolutely every one of the hairs.


In recent years, I have had the opportunity to see for myself the results of several of my colleagues, and while I could see some reduction in most of them (some more than others), I only worked in one case where the estimates from a previous practitioner coincided exactly with the time that I needed to make the second clearing. Guess who?

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#126769 - 05/26/18 09:07 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
ohhhhh...is there a prize for guessing correctly? I could use an all expenses paid trip to Malaga to have my neck cleared! I'm going to guess the previous practioner has the initials MB.

Seana has one of the biggest backs around.I Carry a lot of weight around on it and I've become everyones favourite whipping girl. I think this is normal? I just dont know anymore.


Edited by Iluv2zap (05/26/18 09:25 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126775 - 05/26/18 03:09 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Bingo Seana! I'm sure there are more fun prizes, but of course, I would be happy to meet you personally.

As for the lashes on your back, try to avoid them as much as possible. The first will come without waiting for them, but with practice, one becomes an agile contortionist. wink

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#126795 - 05/29/18 05:32 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina

I have been accused of so many things: lying in my "before & after" cases; press and blackmail clients in exchange for permission to use their photos; lack of professionalism and transparency; and a very funny that begins to become a habit, use false identities to promote my services in Hairtell, WOW!!!... not to mention others that at this moment I can not remember.


I hope you realize that when I said that you were using a false identity to promote your services, it was a clear joke...

What if all those ''accusations'' were also from people like me trying to understand how some electrologists here can kill a good chunk of hairs in one single clearance while some spend years of weekly sessions to get the same results?

I don't think I've ''accused'' anyone, but if I did, let me just say that there was never any ill intent, I was simply looking for some kind of truth (and I've said this way too many times already it's getting exhausting).

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#126799 - 05/29/18 08:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Take the anxiety off your shoulder and stick around zapmyface.

Josepha was talking about things that have occurred to her for years as a result of sharing graciously of her knowledge and skill.Long before you were around. I guarantee she is the last to take offense.

I think after all this mediating you owe me a coffee and chat at some point. Ever get to ottawa?

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126824 - 06/03/18 07:02 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina

I have been accused of so many things: lying in my "before & after" cases; press and blackmail clients in exchange for permission to use their photos; lack of professionalism and transparency; and a very funny that begins to become a habit, use false identities to promote my services in Hairtell, WOW!!!... not to mention others that at this moment I can not remember.


I hope you realize that when I said that you were using a false identity to promote your services, it was a clear joke...

What if all those ''accusations'' were also from people like me trying to understand how some electrologists here can kill a good chunk of hairs in one single clearance while some spend years of weekly sessions to get the same results?




Zapmyface, believe me, I've tried, but I can not understand your point of view. Am I being "accused" because I'm doing my job trying to get the best and fastest results possible?

Perhaps Michael and I have not documented dozens of cases with similar results? Have we not described what we do and shown how we do it? Has the world gone mad, and now you have earned the right to be a victim of your own work?

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#126826 - 06/03/18 08:08 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
The results you post are so far ahead from what most people experience with some (a lot?) electrologists, do you realize this?

It really depends on how you look at it, you might see it as an accusation that your posts are misguided, but I see it as a huge difference in skill which makes it very annoying for people who spent so much more time and money on their end to never get the same results.

How many times do I have to say that I’M GLAD that your results are as amazing as you post them here! I just wish more people could experience them with their own electrologists.

This is maybe where all those ‘’accusations’’ come from, from a place of ‘’jealousy’’ that they couldn’t get the same treatments themselves. Do you really not see why some people can be fed up after years of weekly/monthly treatments, while you post a 1-2 clearance on a foot or face that removes most of the hair?!

P.S. Seana, as much as I’ve appreciated the help and talks we’ve had, I will never speak about electro to anyone ever again, I’m just here to finish getting my point across in this thread then I’m out. (And I’m pretty sure I’m not the one taking things personally here.)

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#126827 - 06/03/18 08:13 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Jossie, yes! The (near) fatal flaw of electrology is one factor: operator. Sometimes "results" are so different that you wonder if this is really ONE profession.

Overwhelmingly, I have seen two main concerns of client/posters: 1) How do I determine if I'm getting the best results or seeing the best electrologist? 2) What do all these post-treatment marks mean?

Clients ask the wrong questions ... and focus on the wrong issues. Maybe, with more media on client concerns this could be improved. But I doubt it? Clients have an inherent tendency to ask the same questions, regardless of the thousands of times the same questions have been answered.

Finally, I'm tired of shouting at the abyss because the abyss is starting to shout back!

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#126828 - 06/03/18 08:15 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I posted this in the wrong thread ... sorry.

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#126830 - 06/03/18 09:03 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
To answer zapmyface? It's like this. Those of us posting here, with decades of experience, are not withholding information as you seem to imply. Indeed, when you find your TRUTH ... please let me know! ("Truth"?) There is no certitude in this field. You want absolute answers and, actually, we do too. It's just that such answers are not forthcoming. (Maybe not possible.)

This "profession" is, in reality, a cottage industry. Many people are self-taught. There is no universal curriculum and the schools teach different concepts. Manufacturers jealously guard their "trade secrets." Information is shared by a scant few. The associations are often prisons of reactionary thinking: closely guarding their domain and often ruled by people who banish opposing (or different) ideas.

Add-in the individual jealously of many operators ... their general lack of education and unwillingness to read (most only have a high school education, but that's not required). There is little to no communication within the ranks (except for a few on Facebook or those willing to "put themselves out there"), and generally no communication about the real "meat" of the profession. (Lots of chit-chat about CREAMS!)

We have no professional magazine or "go-too" source. On top of all this, you have a clientele that is fearful of talking about their "hair secret," so there is little public communication on the issue. Make that: no embarrassing public exposure! Thus, no mirror for the profession and no pressure to improve. Generally, the profession is solitary: one-person isolated fiefdoms with their own devised "secret" methodology; that takes pot-shots at all the other "methods." The "Modality Wars."

And, this post? Nobody is listening and nothing will change. Tomorrow somebody will be talking about how their modality "hurts less, is better than, and all the other methods are crap, etc ... " And, another client will be posting photos of his/her brown spots, red spots and, of course, scars.

So you "grab us by the neck" and demand "the truth?" I'd like to know it too! When you get the answers, let me know!

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#126832 - 06/03/18 10:06 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Ya that's what I've started to conclude and also why there's no point in asking questions anymore. Kinda impossible to get answers (to some questions), since it does seem to be more of an an art-form than anything else really, and there's nothing wrong with that. Honestly, the only thing I'll reproach myself is that I cared too much!

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#126833 - 06/03/18 11:00 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Try not to feel too sorry for yourself. Those of us that take this profession "to heart" have contributed a lot; but we've not seen much in return (that is, significant growth within the ranks ... open minds).

Every now-and-then we get the focused learner: somebody having treatments who delves into this "thing" with extreme enthusiasm. Some time ago, there was "Brenton" who, by his own forcefulness, became an expert in the field. Lots of us nurtured him in hopes that his writings would bring more understanding to everybody.

Then, as always happens when the hairs are GONE, Brenton disappeared along with his hairs. The hairs evaporate, and the client's interest in the subject goes to absolute ZERO! (As it should.) Lots of invested effort ... and no return. So, as in your case, my answers are very short and attenuated at best. Okay, curt.

If I chose to take the time, I'll write another book or make a video. If a client really wants to research this topic, he has to be willing to invest more than just demanding people answer his questions. Or, making recriminating (but funny/sarcastic) remarks. You know, there are lots of books, and other sources, in the field.

But honestly, when the hairs are gone ... you will be too! Still, I seriously hope you get great results. You should! You deserve it.

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#126834 - 06/03/18 11:04 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
There is, however, one single answer to all of this. One overriding and fundamental answer ... I dare not speak of it! And, I won't!

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#126835 - 06/03/18 12:29 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I'll be GONE before my hairs are! I win!

Hopefully no one will answer to this thread anymore so I can finally move on lol.

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#126836 - 06/03/18 03:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
LOL

(I always have to have the last word!)

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#126846 - 06/04/18 11:39 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By zapmyface


P.S. Seana, as much as I’ve appreciated the help and talks we’ve had, I will never speak about electro to anyone ever again, I’m just here to finish getting my point across in this thread then I’m out. (And I’m pretty sure I’m not the one taking things personally here.)


Ya that's what I've started to conclude and also why there's no point in asking questions anymore. Kinda impossible to get answers (to some questions), since it does seem to be more of an an art-form than anything else really, and there's nothing wrong with that. Honestly, the only thing I'll reproach myself is that I cared too much! be GONE before my hairs are! I win!

Hopefully no one will answer to this thread anymore so I can finally move on lol.



Oh that would be nice wouldnt it? If I and everyone else would just stop responding to threads and let the subject die?

And Michael is correct, that when the hairs are gone so is the interest. Well that is unless you are a silly bitch like me and take it up as a profession.

There's been a comment to the effect that "you are treating this as an engineer does" . I'm very familiar with this method of thought. You see my son, is severely autistic. It runs in my genetics. I have some qualities of autism inherited from my father ( who incidentally was a civil engineer!) and my 3 children, all have this to some extent. Ordered structured thinking, is the structure most commonly found. Incidentally many on the autism spectrum gravitate to "rule based" thinking and tend to be good at such structured processes such as mathmatics and engineering. When explaining concepts to my son, I'm often drawn into this by establishing rules, even around more artful things " First this, then this". As people somewhere on the autism spectrum, this allows us to put order to the chaos. It allows us to deal emotionally with the situation where the results, dont quite or necessarily follow the rules, but if I'm honest, when this happens, it can feel quite offensive. There's a tendancy to take offense and flee from the situation.

Which is all well and good, except for one thing, it will freaking eat you up inside. You cant help yourself, you come back to the issue again and again, desperately trying to bring order to the chaos and deal with the ambiguity.To apply new rules, overtop the old rules, to explain the situation. It's because of this that I'm sorry I dont believe you when you say you are hoping the topic quietly dies and you can have no further involvement.Because I dont believe you'll be able to get over that structured thinking process.I also truly hope that is the case.I hope that it bothers you so much, that you too become the one that just CANNOT let it go.


Dealing with ambiguity, is one of the toughest things you will ever face in life, whether you deal with autism or are just average joe of society. In electrology, we deal with these "rules" that may or may not be accurate all the time Some examples of such rules are:

" a hair must be in Anogen Phase of growth to be destroyed"

"Thermolysis leads to scarring"

"Scarring is always caused by overtreatment"

"We kill the follicle by destroying the dermal papillae and so that is the primary target"

"If a practiioner shows results that dont comply with other "known rules" they must be a fraudster, a cheat, and a liar"

"hyperpigmentation is permanent"

"when performing electrolysis we are treating the hair multiple times until we "weaken it" to the point it cannot survive"

As outlandish and stupid as these thought patterns are, they are all just theories used to explain what we are seeing. Not one of them is anywhere near correct. in fact, all of them are blatently wrong. And yet these theories are still used, everyday, to TEACH electrolysis in schools and to explain results. But each of them will have some element of truth to them, but each fall short of adeuately explaining what is seen. There's very little research into electrology( if any) , and so, we are left to decipher the rules, and create new ones as applicable, such as:
"hairs can be destroyed in any stage of hair growth"
"hyperpigmentation from electrology always fades completely given enough time"
"demonstated and shown results over several decades cannot be a fraud"

"Scarring is more likely to be the result of undertreatment than overtreatment"

We come up with new theories to adequately DO explain the results being seen. Are they correct? Maybe, but not necessarily. This is the art portion of electrology.But dont think for a second, that science and engineering isnt a part of this as well.

I once expressed a challenge to you. I'm about to express another one. Help us apply the science to the art of electrolysis. They are not mutually exlusive. In fact the trial of differing theories is the backbone of science and engineering itself.

Edit: As mentioned to you before, we WANT you asking questions.Challenging theories. Testing and retesting applied theories. This is the way that electrolysis , whether art form or science, advances and learning occurs. So that the "questions" from people like you can be quickly and efficiently answered. Sorry to call you out love, but in the words of Melissa Etheridge , one of my favourte singers in the whole world"
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a child, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell, I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
You know you wouldn't want it any other way




Seana



Edited by Iluv2zap (06/04/18 12:42 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126847 - 06/04/18 12:04 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Bravo! Great post! (I copied and saved it.)

Only one correction: it's "anagen" not "anogen."

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#126848 - 06/04/18 01:25 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Oh I had one more thought I wanted to express to you.

In 1876 some mad-scientest who happened to have a "medical" background tested a theory that he could disable an ingrown hair by zapping it with electricity. This was "mad thinking" at the time, and broke all the known "rules" . Thus electrology was born. That's over 140 years ago now. Should be lots of time to establish the correct "rules" right? Well, Mathmatics, and science, stretch back before ancient greece, 1000's of years. And yet new math, new theories, are tested and accepted or discarded to this very day. Asking questions, and testing theories, puts you right at the forefront of electrology "research" as it is today. It is from such humble beginnings that both art and science, progress. I cant see throwing that away.

There's another rule too.
"Michael is never ever allowed to get the last word"


Edited by Iluv2zap (06/04/18 01:34 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126849 - 06/04/18 06:01 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I'd be lying if that speech didn't make me wanna stay lol.

I've been down this exact same road with another subject actually, and ended up alienating myself but mostly others, which is why I'm fearful to stay and continue. I've already started to annoy a few people here and it reminded me of things to come.

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#126850 - 06/04/18 07:09 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
NAH, IT'S NOT TRUE.
It's your own insecurities getting the best of you.
I guarantee , you have not offended anyone here. I faced these same self criticisms. Wasnt the case then either.

Try and not let the internal gremlins, mess with you.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126851 - 06/04/18 09:58 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Not necessarily offend, but at least annoyed a few!

Also no demons here, and I kinda just realized this now, but there really is no point in trying to find answers when they won’t change a thing in my treatments if I ever continue them.

There’s always going to be issues like convenience, transport, cost, length, pain, scars, etc. Well unless you get treated by Josefa apparently. Why would anyone ever get treated by someone who can’t kill every visible hairs in one sweep?! (No sarcasm here)

Michael’s 3 clearances? Pff amateur!

See where I’m going with this?

Actually I’m the one being annoyed now. Why the hell is there such a huge difference in operator skill? This bothers me so much you have no idea. How hard can it be to kill a fucking hair after a few years of experience (which let’s be real, all established electrologist have). There has to be something I’m missing!

Those are questions and annoyances I will never get answers to, so what’s the point? This is why I need to leave this place! FREEE MEEEE!!!


Edited by zapmyface (06/04/18 10:26 PM)

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#126852 - 06/05/18 04:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By zapmyface


Why the hell is there such a huge difference in operator skill? This bothers me so much you have no idea. How hard can it be to kill a fucking hair after a few years of experience (which let’s be real, all established electrologist have). There has to be something I’m missing!



Because while most focus on clearing an area (regardless of whether 20, 30, or 40% of the hairs are forced because they resist), I focus on killing each of the hairs individually as if it were the only existing bastard in that certain area.

Answer that to your question?

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#126853 - 06/05/18 04:35 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I've heard that before, why would an electrologist deliberately choose to not kill each and every hair? Financial reasons? More treatments = more money for them? Am I being too cynical?

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#126854 - 06/05/18 05:33 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
No, I'm sure it's not for financial reasons. It is how they have been trained.
“If the hair resists, no more than two attempts, or there will be overtreatment, so it is safer to force the hair." "If the hair is a telogen, there is not enough water, so after an attempt, the follicle has been sufficiently treated: so you have to force the hair ... but you have to do it gently so that the client does not feel plucking ".

Of course, there are also those without scruples who force the hair without the slightest shame and still have the courage to show themselves in public. For example:

https://youtu.be/GkfPZM08_hw

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#126855 - 06/05/18 05:48 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I could get annoyed even more and ask more questions but I won't, I need to let this go! Any way I can contact you in a year or so for treatments? I promise I won't talk about electro or creams during them lol.

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#126856 - 06/05/18 11:21 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
zapmyface I'm wondering if you are going to travel all the way to spain to be treated?
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126859 - 06/06/18 09:05 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I go to Europe every few years to see my family so why not do the little detour to get the best treatments. It's what we're all thinking right? Josefa offers the best treatments, it feels weird saying it (out of respect for all electrologists) but whatever.

And before her modesty kicks in, she showed a 2 clearance picture on a male beard with most hairs gone on another post, I'm not saying every patient gets those results, but with her it's apparently possible! Has anyone ever done something similar?

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#126861 - 06/06/18 10:45 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
quite often. I should note however that I cannot guarantee such a result, and neither can Josepha.Everyone is different as to their hair and skin history. Timing of clearances becomes crucially important in such a scenario.

You seem to be fixting on her quality of treatments and I dont believe that anyone , including Josepha, is going to be able to live up to your expectations .Sorry to be so blunt.

There are just as many good electrologists as poor ones. I'm sorry you seem to have lost faith in all .


Edited by Iluv2zap (06/06/18 11:34 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126864 - 06/06/18 12:02 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Have you really seen 2 clearances on an untreated male beard remove most of the hair often? If that's not a rare occurrence anymore, I can't wait for someone to remove everything in one go!

And I'm aware it's not about guarantee, but why showcase results like this if it's not what clients could potentially expect then?

She proved that it's apparently possible, so who's not believing who now? SORRY TO BE BLUNT TOO.


Edited by zapmyface (06/06/18 12:33 PM)

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#126865 - 06/06/18 12:15 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I gave up on this topic, because a pernicious seeker-of-the truth ALWAYS becomes a "true believer." In our own ranks (side-stepping these minutiae), I see this unfailingly.

A client gets one negative reaction from a particular machine; and "that machine is a bad machine." Such clients will then specify a certain machine be used. A client gets great results, and has thus discovered the only therapist on the planet that can achieve results.

A beginning electrologist wants instant and simple answers, and once a tiny bit of information is divulged, suddenly becomes an expert on the entire subject. One over-treatment by thermolysis, and the DC-expert condemns all thermolysis users (Susan Laird). Well, you get the point.

When I was teaching in Holland there was Mrs. Rooperoos! She was a gigantic annoyance in my class because she would not shut-up about "her fantastic method." We persisted and I taught her a "new method." She then became a massively obnoxious supporter of me!

The whole thing is stupid and not worthy of comment ... even though I just DID. "True-believers" (and TRUTH-seekers) are my Kryptonite.

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#126867 - 06/06/18 12:54 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Isn't that what Josefa is doing on this forum though? She basically shows results that even some of you pros find incredible from what I've noticed.

You're assuming I believe everything I read or see here. Also, I'm being pernicious on purpose by simply regurgitating stuff that has already been said or thought here. Double standards and group mentality is alive and well...


Edited by zapmyface (06/06/18 01:08 PM)

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#126869 - 06/06/18 01:58 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By Michael Bono



The whole thing is stupid and not worthy of comment ... even though I just DID. "True-believers" (and TRUTH-seekers) are my Kryptonite.


Pretty sure it's mine too.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126872 - 06/06/18 05:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
What on Earth are you babbling about lol. I thought I was seeing the glass half empty, but your post makes it seem like there is no water at all.

A few posts ago you said you wanted to find answers too, yet now ''truth-seekers'' (what does that even mean anyway) are your kryptonite... What's wrong in finding answers in the sea of contradictions that is HairTell (or this entire profession apparently)?

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#126874 - 06/06/18 05:37 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina
No, I'm sure it's not for financial reasons. It is how they have been trained.
“If the hair resists, no more than two attempts, or there will be overtreatment, so it is safer to force the hair." "If the hair is a telogen, there is not enough water, so after an attempt, the follicle has been sufficiently treated: so you have to force the hair ... but you have to do it gently so that the client does not feel plucking ".

Of course, there are also those without scruples who force the hair without the slightest shame and still have the courage to show themselves in public. For example:

https://youtu.be/GkfPZM08_hw


Stabbing...Stabbing...Stabbing...pluckng..plucking...plucking...ehhehe

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#126875 - 06/06/18 05:43 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By zapmyface
What on Earth are you babbling about lol. I thought I was seeing the glass half empty, but your post makes it seem like there is no water at all.

A few posts ago you said you wanted to find answers too, yet now ''truth-seekers'' (what does that even mean anyway) are your kryptonite... What's wrong in finding answers in the sea of contradictions that is HairTell (or this entire profession apparently)?


Relax, no drama, less emotion and talk to me.
You do realise that Josefa has already give you the answer? In this thread?

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#126876 - 06/06/18 07:19 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Pretty sure you and I are on the same page. And yes she's given me several answers in this thread (and others) yet some are still contradicting with other electrologists. Of course now someone is gonna take this as an accusation that she's lying to everyone and the ''drama'' will pursue. Actually, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the one creating the drama here, if anything I was very careful not to! But I guess now I'm part of the issue by prolongating it.

Sadly I don't think this whole thread is about the initial subject anymore. I'm just waiting for people to stop responding and I will too... Simple really.


Edited by zapmyface (06/06/18 07:28 PM)

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#126877 - 06/06/18 09:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Pretty sure you and I are on the same page. And yes she's given me several answers in this thread (and others) yet some are still contradicting with other electrologists. Of course now someone is gonna take this as an accusation that she's lying to everyone and the ''drama'' will pursue. Actually, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the one creating the drama here, if anything I was very careful not to! But I guess now I'm part of the issue by prolongating it.

Sadly I don't think this whole thread is about the initial subject anymore. I'm just waiting for people to stop responding and I will too... Simple really.


Yes we have gone off topic, digressed a little but there's still useful information within the posts. If you promise to remain objective, ask straight forward questions and take your opinion/bias/emotion out of the equation to better understand results we can proceed, I'll try my best to help? Agreed? Now, from what I understand you would like to know how results can vary so greatly from electrologist to electrologist? Correct?

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#126878 - 06/06/18 11:29 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Speaking of objectivity, wasn’t it Michael who exploded on me because I simply pointed out a flaw in one of our statements (it happened to be his)? Wasn’t it I who actually counted the hairs on your picture and tried to math everything objectively to have a clearer understanding? Wasn’t it I who tried to find an accommodating answer that everyone could agree on regarding your treatments (since there were conflicting statements)?

Let’s get the facts straight first before insinuating that I’m the one being emotional and subjective here, thank you.

That being said, I tried to find the answer to that million dollar question for months now, and honestly I don't think anyone will ever find it. It boils down to too many variables and ideas, and frankly it's getting too exhausting to figure out. There's also the ''art-form'' aspect and ''luck'' too (all biological aspects aligned perfectly for electrolysis at the specific moment of the treatment).

I've asked a few posts ago if Josefa's 2 clearances on a male beard (from another post) that removed the majority of hairs was a rare occurrence and apparently it's not. I've seen posts about her results that are supposedly in the same effectiveness or treatment time as some of her peers, yet I've never seen anyone else post or even talk about these kinds of outcomes.

Can we all agree that 2 clearances on an untreated male beard is years ahead of any ''3 clearances on the body''... Or this recent example of your feet, has anyone ever done this in one single clearance? Granted she said herself that she was surprised, but just the fact that it happened shows that it's indeed a possible outcome! Yet no one seems to have ever seen anything like it (unless they're saying silent). How does she seems to be a step ahead of everyone? I know I might seem obsessed with her at this point, but I'm just taking her as the main example to push this further. Actually every time I tried to push, I got nothing but the ''truth-seeking'' monologue, which is fine but NARMA seems to want to reignite the fire lol.

A very low kill rate and numerous clearances seems to be the apparent norm (to me and many others), unless the silent majority is getting much more effective treatments. I've only learned about those 3 (or less) clearances on HairTell!

Again, this has nothing to do with ''believing'', so there's really no need for further accusations.

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#126879 - 06/07/18 12:20 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
zapmyface, you are mixing up apples and oranges in so far as terminology. A clearance can be all at once ( as in josepha's case) or over a period of time . Very few people work as Josepha does, and most that do, arent up to her caliber in skill. I've been straitforward with you from the start on this.

A "clearance" occurs when all of the hair in a given area, is removed at least once. It says nothing as to how many times the area was treated. Capiche? If you contigusly remove all of the hair in one growth cycle ( say 4 -5 months) and then do it again for the next 4-5 months, then that is 2 full CLEARANCES.
Can an everyday electrologist do the same thing in 10 months by contiguously treating the hair? Absolutely, and we do every day.
Josepha works the way she does because people fly from across the planet to be treated by her.And she has found her niche market in mass clearances.
You asked how she can have such results, and I told you that too. She has the maximum hairs available for treatment. It's a carefully designed system she has developed and it involved not touching the hair ( no shaving, nothing!) for 6 months or more.
And finally, after more than 35 years in the industry she operates with great accuracy and skill.
So, I dont understand the question. These are accomplishable goals regardless of methodology of treatment. It's all just semantics, or as you put it, art.

Every "art" has it's pisacco, it's michaelangelo, and , well, Josepha is ours. She's shared graciously of her knowledge to all, including you, who she told you directly "how she does it". She goes after every hair as if it's demise is the most important thing in the world. That's it! That's her "Big Secret"

Now,I know you are cheesed at Michael. My best advice? Ignore him. Really! Michael is getting older, has been though a lot physically with skin cancer removed at one point and now an eye surgery. But he's also one of the most knowledgable people around. He can be a little "crotchety" and occasionally have the bedside manner of atilla the hun when it comes to overly anxious or argumentative newcomers.But he also has moments of near genius when helping people around here. Please, honestly, your best route to peace is to just let that part go you'll not find peace with the issue.

As for the "clearance" issue of results after one, or two clearances, the matter of terminology is an easy one to overcome, you just do what I suggested before, and LEARN everything you can.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126882 - 06/07/18 08:42 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Seana: Hubschman or Couvillion?

Hubschman is the world leader in my specific retina surgery (at UCLA). He said I would have to lay flat for three days (air bubble in the eye), use eye medication for 6 - 8 weeks, not have vision in the eye for 4 - 6 weeks, wear a metal patch, have pain, have no physical activity for 6 - 8 weeks, no water in the eye (shower), no swimming and no driving in a car. (I decided against UCLA because the entire staff went out on strike.)

Dr. Couvillion (Santa Barbara) did the retina surgery. No pain, no air bubble in the eye, and vision returned in a couple days afterward. After two weeks, I discontinued the eye medication and he gave the go-ahead for swimming (I do just under 2-miles per day). I'm driving and will be back at work when I get the ambition (the hairs await! YIKES!)

So, do I conclude that Dr. Hubschman was lying ... Or, do I conclude that Dr. Couvillion is a better surgeon than the published world authority on this particular surgery? If my thinking was like zapjyface, that may be what I'd say. However, I worked in surgery for 10-years (plastic) and have seen slight and major differences take place.

Indeed, I may be "grumpy" but my thinking is flexible and I understand nuance (and hyperbole too).

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#126883 - 06/07/18 08:57 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
To Narma's statement: one-hour to do both feet?

Jossie used local anesthetic, and it would take her, say, 15-minutes to "numb-up" one set of toes (being "patient friendly"). So, 30-minutes for the local. That would leave 30-minutes to treat both feet? Close; but no! Patient "hyperbole."

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#126884 - 06/07/18 09:34 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Furthermore, "zap" is basing his complaints on what someone has written ... not his own personal experience. Indeed, a second-hand story can be accurate, but it's still second-hand; and is often basis of a belief system. I might believe in Jesus turning water into wine, but I'd have to see it, and taste it myself, before I believed any second-hand account. (Not challenging Darma's account ... just saying.)

I say this, because I've been chided for my 3-clearances statement (which I stand by). Like Hubschman, I base my suggestions on thousands of patients, hundreds of therapists (in 12 countries)and more than 40-years in the profession. If I'm "grumpy" about being condemned, by someone with no real-world experience, well, I have every right to be.

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#126885 - 06/07/18 09:53 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Big drama show!

The whole post is loaded with an emotional undertone, whilst you're correct in regards to some aspects of your post, you are wrong not to accept an olive branch when offered one. Especially by myself.

What the others say to you is not my concern, I was merely going to answer your question once and for all, as I believe you lack the knowledge you require to understand. Seana has been doing a pretty good job of explaining yet you need specifics to understand wholly.

I myself had to ask the pertinent questions to understand it better.

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#126886 - 06/07/18 10:15 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Narma, the underlying feeling of "zap" is that he (probably) got rotten, terrible, shitty work; and he's wondering "what the hell happened?" Do I understand? Oh, yes I DO!!

What do I say to a man who had 200 hours on his back, was covered with thousands of ingrown hairs and mostly no hairs permanently removed? Is there horrific "work" out there? Yep!

I would be pissed-off too. Sadly, most clients that get ripped off just "suck it up." I'm sorry they do ... but it's the norm.

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#126887 - 06/07/18 10:21 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Very true that I'm basing my complaints on NARMA's experience, but I've seen a few posts of hers to figure out how much more effective she seems to be. Is it only an impression? Sure, but I truly don't think I'm too far off from reality!

Seana, I didn't know you could treat the same hair many times in a clearance... For example, let's take a specific area on my face, it took 4h to fully remove all visible hairs (in the spawn of 2 appointments within a week). Wouldn't that be considered one clearance? ''New'' hairs will come out the next week, and in a month or so the area will look about the same as it did before if no treatments are done (obviously the few hairs successfully killed will not be there), right? At least that's my experience.

Let's say I come back to get electro done on the same area after a month (it can be 1 month of 5 or 10), it would take a little less time to fully remove all visible hairs (also in the spawn of 2 appointments within a week), let's say 3h45, wouldn't that be the 2nd clearance...? It seems illogical to still call this the 1st clearance to me, but if that's really the consensus, I'll never use that word again lol.

Pretty sure that's how Josefa calculated her ''clearances'' too, unless I'm very mistaken!

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#126888 - 06/07/18 10:31 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
NARMA, did you just read the first paragraph of the big post I wrote earlier or something?

What olive branch are you talking about? You could just try your take at an answer too, like everyone here has done, you know.

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#126889 - 06/07/18 10:43 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
By the way, I don't think I've had shitty work done with the 2nd electrologist that did some of my face every week over 8 months. I've said countless times that it worked and that I was relatively satisfied, but I always wondered if it could be more effective, and apparently it can be!

And I know I did get some answers, I'll try to resume:

1- Trying to kill every single hair like it was the last one there. Honestly I don't like that one, you know why? It implies that other electrologists don't care about what they're supposed to do (KILLING THE HAIR), and focus on clearing the area instead. Is it called electrolysis or waxing?

2- Experience. Sure years of experience can be a good thing, but in my reality it means nothing (the person that did scars on my face had 20 years of experience). My bias is pretty clear on that one but I'm convinced newcomers can as effective as established professionals in some cases.

3- Not touching the hair for months before a treatment. How does that happen on the face? And I'm sorry to take that same example over and over but, her 2 clearance post on a beard took 30 something hours (in 2 travels if I remember correctly). I don't think that person hadn't touched his beard for months beforehand, so it doesn't seem to matter too much. To compare, it took more hours to complete only a small part of my face, with weekly appointments over 8 months. The difference is staggering regardless of clearances. And for the life of me I can't find her post talking about the details, argh!

It might seem like I'm ungrateful by not taking the olive branch... But olive branches are for truth-seekers, I'M A FACT-SEEKER! New word for you Michael lol.


Edited by zapmyface (06/07/18 11:57 AM)

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#126890 - 06/07/18 02:32 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Those seeking facts don't make recriminating remarks, insult people ... who are trying to be helpful ... by calling them liars, or demand absolute answers delivered to them on a silver platter. You know, "screaming at the universe." Such personality behaviors are reserved to those who have only recently discovered the "Truth."

I've seen decades of "Truths" ... and ... on rare occasional ... a fact now-and-then! ("Attila" strikes back!)

Good swim today ... but I got "dolphined" ... don't like that too much. Fins look like FINS! Adrenaline rush.

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#126893 - 06/07/18 03:03 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By zapmyface


Seana, I didn't know you could treat the same hair many times in a clearance... For example, let's take a specific area on my face, it took 4h to fully remove all visible hairs (in the spawn of 2 appointments within a week). Wouldn't that be considered one clearance? ''New'' hairs will come out the next week, and in a month or so the area will look about the same as it did before if no treatments are done (obviously the few hairs successfully killed will not be there), right? At least that's my experience.

Let's say I come back to get electro done on the same area after a month (it can be 1 month of 5 or 10), it would take a little less time to fully remove all visible hairs (also in the spawn of 2 appointments within a week), let's say 3h45, wouldn't that be the 2nd clearance...? It seems illogical to still call this the 1st clearance to me, but if that's really the consensus, I'll never use that word again lol.

Pretty sure that's how Josefa calculated her ''clearances'' too, unless I'm very mistaken!


Do you believe that it's the same hair?
I put it to you , that a basic understanding of cycles of growth, will answer your question.
If you remove a hair and it DOES NOT die as a result, it taked 12-16 weeks before a new haircan be generated and grow to the surface.
If you see a hair growing a week afterwards, it was already started 3-4 months ago. It is NOT the same hair you removed last week though it could be in a similar region.It is rightfully a part of the FIRST cycle of hair growth and no DOES NOT count as a "second clearance"
The timing of clearances, is as I mentioned previously,is of critical importance when doing full clearances. Not all of your hair follicles show at any given point in time only a small percentage are showing.The only way it can be the same hair, is if it was broken in the follicle during treatment .. Which is where Josephas strategy to kill every hair shines, because, this literally, does NOT HAPPEN!
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126894 - 06/07/18 03:59 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Mike Loves Seana!

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#126895 - 06/07/18 05:05 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Oh here we go again, for the 3rd time Michael, I NEVER INSULTED YOU OR ANYONE and NEVER CALLED YOU A LIAR. All of this could've been avoided if you had simply said ''my mistake'' instead of going on and on... and on... about how much you hate ''truth-seekers''. Sometimes you're all about finding answers too, and sometimes you do a complete 180 and belittle anyone who seeks them.

''Deliver answers on a silver platter'' Oh please, I've said countless times that I don't even mind if you or anyone else don't answer me because you've already done it many times already. And that's what you've decided to share, that I DEMAND answers? Lol okay, I don't like drama but I will keep this going and successfully defend myself every single damn time.


Seana, thanks for responding. I also don't believe it's the same hairs growing back! Actually I completely agree with what you just said except that 12-16 weeks. I found some contradiction info on it so please bear with me...

I had done a plucking experiment a while back (my entire chin) to see the regrowth without any treatments. There was a total of around 2200 hairs on the first tweezing rampage (removed all of them). I was hairless for a week, then in the next few weeks, there were new hairs growing and I removed all of them as soon as they appeared, the total was about the same amount (2200) in the spawn of 4 weeks. Granted there were gradually less and less hairs to tweeze, but once I stopped the experiment, in about a month my original beard density came back to normal. This is also what happens when I get a all the hairs removed with electro on the beard, I can't see a reduction with only one ''clearance'' or sweep.

On the body it's different though, I made my electrologist clear an area around my nipple. I was hairless for about 1-2 week. About 1,5 month later, I could see a slight difference in hair density, maybe 20% reduction, however I'm aware that maybe more hairs will regrow because it hasn't been that long and the density might increase like it was before (but hopefully it will stay at a permanent 20% reduction, we'll see).

Those two examples lead me to believe that the face has either a much faster growth rate (like maybe a month, since every time I seem to tweeze or get electro the initial density comes back to pretty much the same in that amount of time) OR a much lower visible percentage of hair showing up at any time (like 20%, but that seems contradicting to a few sources I've seen), OR BOTH. Considering all this, that 12-16 weeks seems far off for at least for the face, no? I AM ASKING, NOT ACCUSING YOU OF LYING!

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#126896 - 06/07/18 10:04 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
no, 12=16 weeks is the correct amount of time.
There is some evidence to suggest that it can be slightly less (8 weeks or so) if the area has sustained a lot of trauma ( such as being thouroughly plucked ) caused by excess blood flow into the area, but I am aware of no circumstances that can make it less than that.
It takes time for the dermal papillae , which is damaged by the plucking, to regenerate itself in order to feed another hair. It also takes time for the stem cells to interact witht he dermal papillae and form a new anogen hair, and for that hair to grow out to the surface. If you are seeing hairs a week or two from when treated, then they are NOT the same hairs.

Edit: your "plucking experiment" actually proves a point abut hair cycles.
If I clear an area,in about a month, I willam killing hairs with electrolysis, this is exactly what I see too I see just the same amount of hair a motnh later. This is completely normal!! If I clear an area completely, then a month later, by your thinking I should see the same amount, less my kill rate. But it's the same , why? Because the chin is the densest number of follicles and only a portion of the hairs are seen. This is why we tell clients not to be concerned witht he apparent lack of progress during the first 4-6 months. Because these are not the same hairs! We dont see the benefits of out work start to emerge for 4-6 months, and THAT is when we note the reduction caused by our kill rate. Did we suddenly start "killing" hair 5 months in? NO! at 4-6 months, we are finally seeing the results from our FIRST clearance.



Edited by Iluv2zap (06/07/18 10:30 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126897 - 06/07/18 11:33 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
the following is an excerpt from a blog I had here on hairtell when I did my removal, called "seeing the forest for the trees"

I want you to note, what I'm saying in this blog, the timings are particularly relevant.

So who turned off the switch?

Alright, to be fair, I had noted reductions in the amount of hair for quite some time.It was slow, imperceptable, but while it used to take me week to get around to all the areas on my face with daily work, it started to take less and less over the last couple months. finally culminating ain total clearance of my working areas in about an hour.And I started to notice tombstones. Lots of them. In fact I am still getting lots of them. Little blackhead like things that if squeezed will pop out a small piece of partial hair. I've noticed them for a while but especially recently there has been a lot of them.
So this has been a busy week. I was helping nightfrost to build a new computer ( broke the cpu too, I didnt need that expense!) and I had a couple of my regular transgirls in for treatment. . As a result I didnt get to treat myself in about a week and a half.Last night I look in the mirror expecting the worst.Nope! Maybe at best a dozen spread out hairs that will tke no more than 10 minutes to treat. It's as if someone turned off a switch and the hairs stopped growing.
Now I'm confused. Yes I had heard of tombstones but didnt immediately identify them as such. But what bothers me? The TIMING. I finally got my memory card for my machine the first week of October. That's when I started treating, and even then I did my arm only for a week or so. So lets count...October, November , December, January , February, March. Six months! From all the reading I do, and all the advice given on these forums, I did in no way expect to reach this point in treatment for at LEAST a year.Six months doesn�t sound reasonable. How is it that a rank amateur, can somehow break the laws of hair growth, and reach a point in treatment that is so near completion, in half the time it takes a professional to treat a client????
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126901 - 06/08/18 12:01 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I see, so that actually means the beard has an EXTREMELY low amount of hairs showing up at any time, much less than the body (since I'm able to see a reduction after 1,5 month on my chest, unlike the face). Always had a feeling it was low, but never thought it'd be THAT low... very eye opening!

Now onto the ''2 clearance on a male beard'' example by Josefa. Finally found the damn post: http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/109925/Results_of_2_clearances_in_man.html

Originally Posted By depilacionelectr
Originally Posted By Barbara_CPE
Curious how many hours it took for each clearance?

Did the client experience any "downtime?"


The first full clearance throughout the beard, upper and lower lip, ears, and neck from the base to the chin (March 2012) took 28 hours, divided into 1, 2 or sometimes 3 hours a day for a period of two weeks. The third week of his stay in Spain served to allow the skin to recover, as it went, and to work in other hidden areas. The guy returned home without anyone noticing that something had happened.

The second full clearance (October 2012) took about 18 hours to re-clean the same areas as the first time. Only this time, my client had not shaved for over a month (just trimmed)

A year later (October 2013), we had to wait a week to take photographs in order to see the remain hairs.

I do not know what you mean by "downtime". I think the lapse of time between the first and second clearance (7 months) is a fairly reasonable time.


Ok so, few hours a day for 2 weeks, 28h to remove the entire beard, makes sense. What I don't get is how is it possible to get a reduction of 30% a year later (28h vs 18h) with just that one sweep?

Where are the new hairs like any electro treatment (or the tweezing experiment) demonstrates? New hairs pop and the same hair density is observed after only a month, least on my own face!

So how could there be this much of a reduction? Is this client a special case where most of the hair was showing up at that specific time (just like the foot example here)?

Hopefully you see why I find this a little contradicting! I'M NOT ACCUSING ANYONE OF LYING, I JUST WANNA UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY.


Edited by zapmyface (06/08/18 12:09 PM)

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#126902 - 06/08/18 12:37 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
For example, if 50% of the hairs were visible on the beard just before the first clearance, the other half (50%) would’ve been hidden, correct?

Following that logic, if she indeed killed all of those hairs, it would take THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME (28h) to kill the remaining that were hidden, regardless of timing or clearances.

That seems to be the case if we look at her treatment time, 28h (1st clearance) versus 18h + 9h = 27h (2nd + 3rd clearance like she said it would take); about the same amount for both halves.

Wouldn't that also mean that for this example, only half of the hair was hidden at any given time on the beard? From what we just discussed, I thought it was much higher...

That would also mean that if I see about the same density of hair on my face after an electro treatment (or my tweezing experiment) after a month, well... This is where things don't seem to add up. I thought it could be my perception of hair density that was the issue, but I just compared my before/after pictures to be sure and it's not.


Edited by zapmyface (06/08/18 01:24 PM)

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#126908 - 06/08/18 10:48 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
My brain hurts from trying to read and understand all that.

so, the first thing I have to tell you, is that none of the hair cycles for any of the hairs are "synched up". You'll never get two follicles to show hairs at precisely the same time. And there is no way to measure the cycles of an individual hair follicle.I's all statistics based on results. This is the biggest problem with your "number crunching"
I can obtain statistics from my machine on the number of hairs treated and settings used, and a million other things, but i generally dont bother. Why? Because I'm only there to kill hair!Not enough is known about the exact nature and timing of hair growth cycles.
for any given result, ( including Josepha's) there a dozen or more ways to interpret that result.And they will all come up with different answers.
One thing Michael has said, for many years, is the following phrase:
"Forget about it! " and I would agree with that advice. It's not worth trying to psychoanalyse the process to that extent.
In fact the only thing that truly is important here is ...drumroll please....Total Treatment Time! Can a practitioner deliver what they say they can and in what amount of treatment time. The timing and length of thoseindividual treatments, frankly is immaterial.The total Treatment time, is material.
Understanding the process and timing of hair cycles can drive you to drink ( in fact, I think I'll have one ! And I never drink!) but the best you can get from that is to plan your treatments accordingly. As electrologists we also use this as a tool to help clients budget for hair removal.
But figuring out who can kill hairs in the least number of clearances, and why, is not all that importnat in the grand scheme on things.You have to keep the bigger picture in mind (The total treatment time).

Just get the dang hair off sir!


Edited by Iluv2zap (06/08/18 11:01 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126909 - 06/08/18 11:53 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Smiles here.

I looked at the beard example that was recently shown here (Josefa's client). I would categorize this as a very sparse beard (with the customary protocol and predictions). My nephew Eric's beard is similarly sparse, and I could probably remove the entire thing (TTT) in ... drum-roll ... 25 hours. Other beards? Right to the 100 hour mark and beyond. 'CAUSE IT'S THICKER!

I have treated men in the same age and ethnic group. One man (mid-20s) presented more than 80% of his back hairs in anagen. Another guy (same age) presented almost 90% in telogen. Neither had ever shaved the area. But if they had it would have looked insanely different. (Seana will understand this point.)

Nobody is going to figure this out as an absolute. The bean-counters, hairs-per-minute people? ... All of this attempted calculation is silly and absolutely ludicrous to somebody who's been doing this shit for 40 years. I could do an hour lecture on variables that would blow any attempt to "calculate" right to hell.

Can't spend your time on this Seana ... get to the REALLY important stuff like "brown spots," swollen lips and ... gulp ... scabs! Oh yeah, creams too.

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#126911 - 06/09/18 12:34 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
There is only one issue: What has to be done to permanently disable a hair follicle the FIRST time! Once that's settled it's just a matter of zapping them until they're gone.

Okay, I have been a bit hard on you, and I realize you have nothing else to go on except what you can see and count. You can't speak to operator skill. However, operator skill is the ONLY issue and the only reason there is such an appalling difference in results.

I know it, Josefa/Dee/Seana knows it and so do half of us out there in "Zap-land." The difference in operator skill is abysmal and will probably not change any time soon.

What can a client do? Learn to ask the right questions. Counting hairs, figuring how many clearances, etc., everything that you have been sweating, are futile and meaningless. Your "million dollar question," poised as it is, has no value. Maybe $1.00? You're on the wrong track.

I'm OCD and so is Seana, but DAMN you have taken this to new heights!

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#126912 - 06/09/18 12:56 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I think I pulled that 30% reduction out of nowhere, not sure where it came from, but the rest was well calculated though (at least I hope so).

To simplify my math novel up there, if anyone is still reading, the main question was how 2 clearances had such a great impact in hair reduction on Josefa's client when 2 clearances on my beard has barely no effect (I'm sure it has however it's not really visible). The difference is staggering.

I guess the answer is simply ''operator's skill'', but I thought maybe hidden hairs percentages or a few other factors could be also taken from that example.

Out of curiosity, is my beard similarly sparse too?

https://imgur.com/a/g7hXEQ6

https://imgur.com/a/Gpbkv5Y

P.S. Believe it or not Michael, but I'd rather MAKE all electrologists learn all this stuff than having to ''shop'' myself by asking the right questions, if that makes any sense. I know it's completely ridiculous, delusional and unrealistic but it's sadly a very strong feeling that can rarely be tamed. ''Thinking about other people'' and ''trying to make the world a better place'' is always at the back of my mind, and honestly it has caused me more harm than good over the years. When I push so much, it's not only for myself, but mostly for everyone to understand it too (at least that's how my mind sees it), but I guess in reality I just sound way too ''OCD'' and/or insane.


Edited by zapmyface (06/09/18 01:41 AM)

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#126914 - 06/09/18 08:27 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
You know what the first thing I notice in that picture is?

The cheeks! And can you guess why? because they 100% prove beyond the shadow of a doubt, that your electrologist who was working on you was killing hair.
Looking at your beard, it looks thinned out in places, the hairs are course ( what I recently referred to as my "gravy" but if you look at the cheeks they are almost bare. a few sparse hairs, that's it. They didnt start out that way did they? Would you care to take a guess as to why they seem to have done so well?

The cheeks have the fewest number of hair growth cycles on the face, the chin, the most.If your electrologist was not killing hair ( and in a serious way too) then these would not look like this! So when we are doing full clearances on the face, the cheeks are the FIRST area we see progress.

Your beard DOES in fact look thinned out whether from treatment or young age ( they thicken and get denser as you get older, sorry!). If you look carefully there are small "gaps" where there seems to be no hair growing. They didnt start out like that either.

In quebec, as in ontario, there is no "licensing" of electrologists. So unfortunately you cant "make" all the electrologists do ...anything. They and they alone can make the decision to learn more.

I can understandyour desire to "help other people" in fact, it's one of the major reasons I took up electrology. I was convinced I wasnt the only person with this problem , and I wasnt. But let me tell you a secret about that, you have to keep the " big picture" in mind at the same time.
As I right this, my autistic son , who I love more than anything in the world, is playing a game of 2048 a few feet from me. He hasnt spent a night in my home since march until last night. He was taken from my home because I was working too much, trying to run a business , support my family . That is the "big picture" that I was missing.The really important bit, was MY TIME. He's leaving in about 30 minutes and I wont see him again until tues. I dont intend to waste another second of this precious time on this matter.

That passion, that wanting to help others, is the hardest thing to instill in anyone. It is one of the reasons I pegged you as someone likely to take up this profession, and do so with great passion. It's true I am in fact looking for another electrologist for my clinic eventually. The best fit, is someone who has that passion. But dont worry about it I am not recruiting you. Just noting to you that that passion to help others, to excel at this very difficult profession, is the hardest thing to find.When it pops up (every few years) you have to nurture it and gently nudge it in the right direction. Just as you cant make "all electrologist learn this stuff" we cant make you do it either.

Seana
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Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126915 - 06/09/18 09:05 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'd say the cheeks have more "cycles" than the chin and, in my experience, the chin is first to "go" and cheeks/lower neck/upper lip, the last. Never mind, we are both looking at good work. Wanting to "uplift/educate" the entire profession? Humm, interesting concept ... can't speak to that ... I know nothing about it. (I have a Hinkel quote on this; too "rich" to share?)

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#126916 - 06/09/18 09:32 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
alright, then "why" is this always the first area completdd, across all my cases? The chin is always the first one started, and the last to finish. Very consistently.And they are generally half the time investment ( despite more surface area) that the chin is.
I'm not saying you're wron, just that the results you are stating are not commencerate with my experience. And there
s NOTHING wrong with that ( many ways to interpret results each coming out with a different "true" answer).

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126917 - 06/09/18 09:36 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By zapmyface
I think I pulled that 30% reduction out of nowhere, not sure where it came from, but the rest was well calculated though (at least I hope so).

To simplify my math novel up there, if anyone is still reading, the main question was how 2 clearances had such a great impact in hair reduction on Josefa's client when 2 clearances on my beard has barely no effect (I'm sure it has however it's not really visible). The difference is staggering.

I guess the answer is simply ''operator's skill'', but I thought maybe hidden hairs percentages or a few other factors could be also taken from that example.



According to my calculations, if we look at the time factor used in each clearance, the reduction that occurred in the first clearing was 35.8%. Does this mean that 64.2% of the hairs were hidden?

Since this first clearance occurred about 2 weeks after the last shave. And since this time frame is insufficient for most of the telogenic hairs (20% according to some experts in trichology) to be visible / treatable, it seems plausible that more than 60% of the hairs of this male beard were not present at the beginning of the treatments.

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#126920 - 06/09/18 04:20 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
That pic was taken just before my first real clearance on that side. I wanted to see how long it would take to clear the area similar to the other side that had previously been done weekly over 8 months, but now... in a short window of time (full clearance in the same week then wait months to see the regrowth, then another full clearance etc, instead of weekly bit by bit).

I won’t go into too much detail but the sideburns have a few zaps on them (from different electrologists), and the cheeks even less. I agree that some treatments probably have slightly reduced the density there; I never said it wasn't working! My ‘’obsession’’ from the start has always been about efficiency.

However I'd like to point out that my beard was always relatively dense on the bottom (neck, chin), but the cheeks and top sides have always looked similarly sparse like that (kinda weird, I know).

That said, this is where the regrowth is at now, 2 months after the the full clearance (it took 4h):

https://imgur.com/a/NJkCuJS (treatment was on the left of that yellow line)

https://imgur.com/a/Qfjk0ZF

I don’t see much of a visible difference, but obviously I’m sure several hairs were effectively killed. The difference with Josefa’s example was simply the amount of reduction (high for her vs low for me). Her full clearances took 28h, then 18h, then probably 9h to finish off as she estimated.

On my side, it will be 4h, then 3h50, 3h40, 3h30, etc for that area, which I always thought was the norm. If we did the entire face, I think it would take 20 something hours too for a full clearance, then 19h, 18h, 17h, etc. And I know all this because the other side of my face was done by the same electrologist (over 8 months), so I'd say the estimates are pretty realistic.

P.S. Seana, I agree with the ''big picture'', I actually HATE those feelings of ''having to help people'' and to always think about them, like you sometimes I'm sure it has caused more harm than good. Sadly those feelings are always present even if we don't want them to be, and this isn't PsychoTell so let's not even try to get into it lol.


Edited by zapmyface (06/09/18 06:26 PM)

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#126921 - 06/09/18 04:36 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina
Originally Posted By zapmyface
I think I pulled that 30% reduction out of nowhere, not sure where it came from, but the rest was well calculated though (at least I hope so).

To simplify my math novel up there, if anyone is still reading, the main question was how 2 clearances had such a great impact in hair reduction on Josefa's client when 2 clearances on my beard has barely no effect (I'm sure it has however it's not really visible). The difference is staggering.

I guess the answer is simply ''operator's skill'', but I thought maybe hidden hairs percentages or a few other factors could be also taken from that example.



According to my calculations, if we look at the time factor used in each clearance, the reduction that occurred in the first clearing was 35.8%. Does this mean that 64.2% of the hairs were hidden?

Since this first clearance occurred about 2 weeks after the last shave. And since this time frame is insufficient for most of the telogenic hairs (20% according to some experts in trichology) to be visible / treatable, it seems plausible that more than 60% of the hairs of this male beard were not present at the beginning of the treatments.



Probably, it makes sense! This also assumes that your kill rate is somewhere close to 100%, and the same speed and settings were used throughout all treatments. I'm VERY close to being satisfied with all the answers in this thread (thank you everyone, it's been though but we got there lol), I guess the remaining step to reach complete fulfillment and understanding would be to experience it myself. Now that I think about all this math and try to read my posts again, this quote from Seana comes to mind:

Originally Posted By Iluv2zap
My brain hurts from trying to read and understand all that.


LOL, I TYPE SO MUCH!


Edited by zapmyface (06/09/18 06:17 PM)

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#126929 - 06/11/18 10:32 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
deenglow Offline
Contributor

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 12
Drama and arguments aside, I'm a young(ish) hopeful waiting for my financial situation to change so I can go to school and start myself. I don't post a lot but I have quietly read this forum for years and just want to say how much I appreciate all of you taking the time to be here educating me.

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#126930 - 06/12/18 12:55 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
mmm well that's one of the nice things about electrolysis deenglow. Though it can cost a few dollars to get certified, you can learn all you can ahead and practise practise practise .I've listed off a bunch of reading material lately, and just about all of it can be had on the cheap.Even epilators to practise with are getting to be less expensive used.Pretty much exactly what I've suggested to zapmyface can be used as resources for anyone to learn. Knowing all you can can help you sail though electrolysis school and in your career too and all it really costs you, is your effort. When you do run into questions, hairtell is a pretty good sounding board to get advice from experts.
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Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126931 - 06/12/18 04:31 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
deenglow Offline
Contributor

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 12
I've got plenty of my own body hair I'd love to practice on and asked some different companies selling refurb units about prices and they never get back to me. Currently torn between countries (in the us now, and uk, which is home) and sitting on my hands while my dad is in hospice. If I was able to find an instantron for relatively cheap here in the us does anyone suppose I'd be able to just pack it in a suitcase and swap out a cord?

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#126932 - 06/12/18 08:55 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
I'll ask skip Mahler if the instantrons have switchable power upply.They likely do. I know apilus mostly do ( at leasst both models I own do) and thye can be had inexpensively on kijiji quebec ( a few hundren bucks to aaround 2000) .

The problem with Instantrons ( as much as I love them) is that in general, practioners will let you have them from their cold dead hands! So they dont tend to come up used nearly as often.


Edited by Iluv2zap (06/12/18 09:08 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126933 - 06/12/18 09:23 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Just heard from Skip ( gosh he's quick to get back to me) :

Yes, she would be able to switch back and forth between 110 and 220 voltage. We do the service for $100 extra
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126934 - 06/12/18 01:44 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
deenglow Offline
Contributor

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 12
Very cool. I've watched them in use on YouTube but I've only had an apilus platinum used on me which was surprisingly pretty painful. When he says "do the service" does he mean I'd have to ship it off?

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#126937 - 06/12/18 05:16 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
I dont know.Perhaps youshould email instantron directly? I'm certain Skip will answer you.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126939 - 06/12/18 09:32 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
deenglow Offline
Contributor

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 12
I suppose you are right, worst case scenario being another unanswered email in a large pile of unanswered emails!

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#126965 - 06/15/18 09:31 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Deenglow is trying to get the last word... Over my hairy dead body! Lol. I had a few days to think about all of what has been discussed in this thread, and, you guessed it, something is still itching my brain. Several factors of effectiveness have already been explored, however I’d like to delve into the most important one. I was wondering if practitioner’s skill, or the ‘’art’’ of electro, could be explained in a more... practical term. Oh no, not this again! Shut him up already! BOOOOOO! Bear with me for a sec before throwing your tomatoes, lol!

What makes the difference between a close to 100% kill rate (as shown several times on this forum by Josefa) versus a, well, pretty low one… I can’t talk for everyone, but 3-15% is what I’ve personally experienced in my relatively long term tests/treatments. So how can this be? Forgive the simplicity, but isn’t every electrologist doing the same thing, i.e. putting a needle in a hole and zapping. Off the top of my head, the only differing factors I can think of are the depth, strong-enough current (to get the hair to release without plucking, otherwise going back a second time), and maybe angle. Everything else seems rather trivial compared to this, no?

Let's take my weekly treatments over 8 months on an area of my face (with the same operator) as an example. Multiple pulses (close together, in less than a second) were used throughout my treatments. I would assume this solves the issue of different depths! Sometimes, another pass was needed to remove the hair without plucking it. I'd assume that removes suspicions about not using adequate current/settings since it was relatively rare, right? I guess that also removes doubts that she was only trying to clear the area fast, and not try to kill every single hair, as some people pointed out in this thread already.

So how come is there still such a big difference in terms of effectiveness with what seems to be the norm on this forum (few clearances and TTT-wise; let’s not even talk about Josefa’s miraculous posts). Could the multiple pulses (3!) still not be effectively targeting the right area(s)? Could the angle be the secret ingredient (applying pressure to the follicle walls seems to be the only thing I can think of)? Not too sure what else there could be...

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#126966 - 06/15/18 12:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'm not going to toss any tomatoes; I'll just make a couple comments/observations.

First off, I have a strong client policy: clients must NOT post "heroic" photos of my work. I won't continue with them if they do, because they usually get into some "contest" with which they know nothing about. If B&A photos are posted, I'll do it myself (with consent) and offer up the exact TTT and evidence. If clients hype my work, and/or present hyperbole, it gets people up-in-arms or pissed-off (electrologists). Bad Ju-Ju! (I differ from Josefa on that point.)

My favorite clients just shut-up, get the work done and leave happy ... nothing to brag about please! I don't need the "ahgeda" (NY Italian for grief.)

Having said that, indeed the differences clients get is astronomical. I spoke some time ago about a local electrologist who took 127 hours on a chin (beard) with almost no results. (A whole beard should be less than 100 hours.) The electrologist went to the Hinkel School (my school) and uses the same machine I use. What the hell is wrong? I think you can figure that out.

As to all the various variables? Actually, if a REAL scientific study were ever conducted, we would discover that the variables are pretty small: there would emerge one technique to beat them all. Problem is, it will never happen. Thus, the client is left with the terrible task of trying to figure this out themselves. And this site will continue on with legitimate head-scratching, and half-baked recriminations. It's not worth it because nothing will come of it!

Tomatoes please!

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#126967 - 06/15/18 12:10 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
sigh, he's begging for it and I cant! Housing ripped up my garden this year to run new gas lines......
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126968 - 06/15/18 01:36 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Having said that, indeed the differences clients get is astronomical. I spoke some time ago about a local electrologist who took 127 hours on a chin (beard) with almost no results. (A whole beard should be less than 100 hours.) The electrologist went to the Hinkel School (my school) and uses the same machine I use. What the hell is wrong? I think you can figure that out.


My damn point exactly, I CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT! I tried to present variables that are all related to the zapping itself aka electrologist ''skill'', nothing to do about machines or methods!

Do you consider the variables I talked about small? Are there more important ones? Honestly, I don't think they're that small, otherwise people wouldn't have such different results! I really wouldn't push this further if TTT was in about the same range for everyone, but it's not so here I am.

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#126969 - 06/15/18 02:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Some of the variables that contribute to their skill or kill rate include insertion accuracy, choice of probe and modality. The training they recieved and what retraining they have undergone. And most of all what Josepha said, their desire to destroy every single hair. If you dont treat certain hairs because you dont like telogen or catogen or grey hairs or whatever, well if you never try, you will definitely never succeed in killing them. Treatment of the hair beforehand ( ie not shaving it) makes a big difference to growth cycles.

It's not that your "clues" and questions are unimportant, but they are one small part of the bigger picture. All of these things and more contribute to what you call art or skill.

Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (06/15/18 02:04 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126970 - 06/15/18 02:33 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
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Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
By insertion accuracy, do you mean the depth at which the zap is made? Doesn't the multiple pulse technique employed by my electrologist (and I'm sure many others) greatly improve that accuracy?

She also treated every single hair during our sessions regardless of phases, and zaps it again when it rarely pulls when tweezed.

She seems to be doing everything right, yet I can't figure out why TTT will take at the very least 2x what is repeatedly discussed here (not even talking about Josefa's miracle posts, just generally speaking). I can't help but wonder... how, why? Really, what else is there?!

The choice of probe seems trivial, at least to me, I'd be extremely pissed (actually enraged) if that was the factor that greatly increases my TTT...

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#126972 - 06/15/18 05:17 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Time to clarify certain facts:

1) Indeed, the time used to clear the 10 toes was not 60 minutes, but 72 minutes exactly. The confusion is probably due to the fact that I charged for an hour, rounding in favor of the client as I always do.

2) The timer starts with the first pedal pressure, that is, those 72 minutes of the session correspond exclusively to the time used in the electrolysis process, not in the infiltration of anesthesia or other previous steps.

"Clients who present hyperbole in order to highlight my work ...".
It sounds like a euphemism to me. The correct term would be:
"Josefa's client is LYING and she is his ACCOMPLICE". It's okay.

The difference between you and me Michael, is that I would never question a direct testimony by any of your clients knowing that you are present in the conversation, and knowing full well that professionally you would clarify if such lies had taken place.


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#126973 - 06/15/18 07:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Oh dear, I got my tit in the wringer ...
Not what I meant ... mama mia!

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#126974 - 06/15/18 09:27 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Mission accomplished! Fight between yourselves, muhahahaha!



All jokes aside, I think Michael's point was more about clients hyping the work and not about devaluating yours. I'd also like to clarify that I'm very aware of the ''hype'', if anything I always diminish it's effect IN MY MIND to compensate. Sadly even accounting that, it still doesn't make sense to me how there is such a huge gap between operators. I think I've presented valid points trying to figure out why (in my last 2 messages) accounting for everyone's answers that have already been given in this thread. It would be a shame to end this now, though, being so close to what feels like a ''final answer''!

The ball is in your camp (all of you), I'm just the challenging... messenger! Waiting for people to answer (if they want to) so I can refute and compromise to get closer to a satisfying answer.


Edited by zapmyface (06/15/18 09:34 PM)

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#126975 - 06/15/18 10:05 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Zap, you are one funny guy. Okay, coming clean: The answer you are looking for ...

It's all about local anesthetic: it's the gorilla in the room that nobody talks about for a number of good reasons (including extreme hostility, fear & condemnation). I don't mention it for the crucial reason that this is no place to go into such details. But painless treatment is only a small percentage of the benefit.

Adding local does amazing things to (any) treatment; and amps it up to nearly a different modality; think night-and-day. It adds actual moisture to the skin making the thermolysis more effective (and in the right spot). It causes less cooling-effect by slowing blood-flow (epi) = more effective currents. It allows for treatment without worrying about patient comfort. It GREATLY diminishes post-treatment problems, to near zero, by delaying the inflammatory process.

Indeed, there are many other treatment benefits. However, as I say, this is no place to get into the details; and I won't do it. But, from my perspective, I just gave you the answer you are looking for. And now I will shut my big, wrinkled, stupid, preposterous (blind eyes) face to avoid any more misunderstandings and condemnation.

Back to clients posting stunning results? It's like this (for me anyway). If we talk about results that clients are not getting, or CANNOT get, where do we go from there? Unless I can actually show an electrologist (in person) what I'm doing, what's the point of creating confusion or anger? For example, why talk about local anesthetic when few do it ... again, what's the benefit to clients? Frustration! And anger from the professionals.

Usually I try to aim at-the-middle and give clients an average in what they should expect in the real world of electrology. Maybe I'm wrong. Still, that's how I TRY to handle questions like yours. (Love the devil, by the way.) AND, I AIN'T SAYING NUTHIN' NO MORE!

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#126976 - 06/15/18 11:24 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Okay, one last time. Example:

Look at it this way. Eric has a 2011 Volkswagen and our neighbor has the exact same car (almost). Eric can beat the guy in a race any time. So, we talk about tires, tire pressure, shift patterns and transmissions, road conditions, grades of gasoline, synthetic/natural oil, additives, RPMs, etc.

Then the revelation: Eric's car has a TURBO! Oh the poor guy that doesn't know about the turbo ... he just thinks he's a terrible driver and has no idea why he loses every race. Yeah, it's like that! And, that's just my damned opinion and I'm sticking to it!

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#126977 - 06/15/18 11:28 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Yesssss, one step closer! Why would you say no more, we're on the right track! BY ALL MEANS, SPILL EVERYTHING OUT! VOMIT THAT KNOWLEDGE MICHAEL, INFECT ME WITH IT! Lol, gross. I'm not kidding though, why don't you want misunderstandings and condemnations?! Seems like they're actually necessary for everyone to have the correct answers (well, maybe just me).

By local anesthetic, you mean something injected with a needle, and not topical creams like EMLA or BLT, right? I'd assume those creams will still have some of those beneficial effects you're talking about, but maybe to a lesser extent? Very interested in this.

I'm not really concerned about my comfort or temporary skin reactions, so I'll just skip these.

Moisture and blood flow, easily understandable, got it. NEXT!

So if I read between the lines correctly, cranking up the current will indeed yield a better result? I thought when the hair was removed without a pull, adding more current wouldn't do much in terms of effectiveness, I guess I misinterpreted what I've read on this forum (or maybe I am now).

I wonder if Josefa used local anesthetic on our yet again polarizing cream test... It could explain the difference in reactions!!!!

Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Back to clients posting stunning results? It's like this (for me anyway). If we talk about results that clients are not getting, or CANNOT get, where do we go from there? Unless I can actually show an electrologist (in person) what I'm doing, what's the point of creating confusion or anger? For example, why talk about local anesthetic when few do it ... again, what's the benefit to clients? Frustration! And anger from the professionals.


That's the thing, if it's something I can personally do myself, or make someone else do, why not try to emulate and hopefully educate in the process, so everyone (ok, mostly me, lol) gains from it! It's the whole damn point of my existence on this forum.

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#126978 - 06/15/18 11:38 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Injected ... and indeed Jossie (who I love dearly; and she knows it) is THE master. Few physicians have her ability ... VERY few. Okay, none of them!

No more until I get the energy to produce a book or a series of videos ... with all the bells, whistles and exactly how to go about all of it (insurance), "That's all folks!"

With all my series of surgeries (four of them), frankly I'm out-of energy but hope I live long enough to accomplish a few more goals I have my (good) eye focused on. I'm old ... I might not. Just reality.

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#126979 - 06/16/18 12:03 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
What's the anesthetic used? I know that damn topical lidocaine gives me a headache almost every time (depending on the amount absorbed I assume). I wonder what you and Josefa use, and what amount.

Seana, I think you already tried to undertake this task (injected anesthetic) in Canada, but found some roadblocks along the way, right? Let's try to figure it out (if you haven't already)!

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#126980 - 06/16/18 12:08 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Ich kann nicht hören

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#126981 - 06/16/18 12:17 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
BÖSE! Du kannst es auf Deutsch sagen, ich verstehe!

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#126982 - 06/16/18 12:23 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Thank you Josie, this was necessary. Regardless of whether what has been said to have been in the end put down to 'misunderstandings'.

The clarified facts, a small detail mind you considering, that even an OCD should be prepared to accept as a negligible difference and conclude as more or less the same truth and not fabrication or gross overstatement to the initial claim.

The objective point (focus) of this thread was and still is, efficacy and permanency and not over glorification of results to inflate another's ego underservedly. My own dignity and principles would not allow me to do this.

Therefore, if any honour is due to the always humble electrologist in this case it is deservedly so with respect to the commitment and dedication shown to obtain such results as in this thread and countless other examples catalogued here on hairtell where lying/condoning lying has never ever been neccessary.

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#126983 - 06/16/18 01:02 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Well to be fair, the results are supposed to be glorified, whether on purpose or not, since one clearance is all it took, instead of the usual 3, 5, or 15! TTT also seemed to be ridiculously low too. Hype, questions and maybe even accusations are kinda expected with ''miraculous'' posts like these, to hopefully get everyone on the same page, wouldn't you agree?

I feel like I've learned much more than I usually do with all these supposed accusations and misunderstandings, but maybe that's just me... Two weeks ago I would've said the opposite thing, but now... Bring on the PROGRESS disguised as drama!

P.S. Did you really think you could get the last word... on your own thread? How dare you! Lol kidding.

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#126986 - 06/16/18 09:23 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
There are two different conversations going on at the same time here. One conversation highlights great work (as it is). However reasonable questions about specifics, or generalizations about the industry as a whole, are taken as personal insults and accusations. The other conversation is just fact-finding.

Since this thread is about toes and feet, and Jossie's great work, it seems right that Jossie herself should be the one to clarify the specifics of her treatment. Surely not me or anyone else who might only be speculating.

Once terrific work is shown, juxtaposed to other's inferior work, it seems appropriate that the relevant details and methods used (e.g., anesthetic) should be explained ... just simple fact-finding.

If Eric's Volkswagen keeps beating the neighbor, Eric should tell him how and why!

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#126987 - 06/16/18 10:21 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
We should send your neibour a sneaky pete nos system and watch the fun.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126989 - 06/16/18 11:25 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
MelB77 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 09/08/17
Posts: 13
Do you mean the only way to get effective electrolysis is by using local anaesthetic? Is this common practice?

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#126990 - 06/16/18 11:54 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
NO! Of course not. I'm going to hate this next chapter.

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#126994 - 06/16/18 01:38 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
NARMA: Frankly, I took offense at your posting. It's called entrapment.

You asked for estimates (on your feet) for your own ulterior reason, with a cleverly-crafted response ready to go. When a few of us tried to provide genuine help in offering industry standards, you sprung your trap and placed all our inadequacies on display for all to see. Okay, we don't stand a chance compared to your electrologist? You set a trap and I fell for it! I'm irritated. Yeah, I'm always annoyed by obsequious "boot lickers."

Even if a person has something legitimate to praise and acclaim, I'm still offended. Let me be very clear: your question was a set-up. It was designed to make others look bad. You had an answer ready, before you asked. Your attitude is haughty and imperious.

It comes down to this: "my electrologist is the best, and you're inadequate!" That's a horrible attitude and worse yet when it comes with my friend's stamp of approval. Wow! Showing off and belittling others, without factual explanation, is not helpful and only adds to the confusion.

Still, if a person wants to claim they are superior to every other practitioner on the planet then they have an OBLIGATION to explain why that is? That's the fact-finding aspect. Otherwise it's just self-serving hero worship: something I loathe. Nobody is "the hair removal God" or has secret magical powers. I've been fighting this nonsense in the industry for decades.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's exactly how this seemed to me! This time I'm not buying the "I'm only trying to help the industry!" Yours was a carefully orchestrated slam, and it stinks ... bullshit.

Let me also say without equivocation, that Josefa is probably my best friend and I love her. I always will, but this episode was messed-up.

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#126995 - 06/16/18 02:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
It's ok Michael. You arent working at the moment, so you have more time to carefully read and be offended by posts here.
That said, I see your point. It's why I held off answering anything at first, something didnt smell right. I've come to trust my instincts in regard to this, if it doesnt smell right, it probably isnt!
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126996 - 06/16/18 02:26 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
(Love the nos comment).

But yeah, I bit the baited hook? SHIT!

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#126997 - 06/16/18 04:09 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Michael, It's not maybe. It's you are wrong. The problem is you. The constant ramblings, the constant two-face that you show in your posts and digression that is not asked for or called for.

You come across as a strange man, who needs someone to talk to, are you lonely? I'm willing to counsel you. Would you like my number?

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#126998 - 06/16/18 05:09 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
If you say so ...

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#127000 - 06/16/18 05:48 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By NARMA2018
Michael, It's not maybe. It's you are wrong. The problem is you. The constant ramblings, the constant two-face that you show in your posts and digression that is not asked for or called for.

You come across as a strange man, who needs someone to talk to, are you lonely? I'm willing to counsel you. Would you like my number?


Narma, this is not news. Michael is getting older ( retirement age) and well, some minor senility is pretty normal in such cases. Did you never have the gransfather who rambled on about how they walked 18 miles in a hurricane to school everyday when they were kids?

Fact is, Michael is still one of the better resources for information out there . Yes he can come accross as a little contradictory, so what? Not everyone communicates the same way.I'm certain some tales of old being told ( many of which DO have relevance to the situation at hand) is much preferable to the sound of crickets and dead silence when someone asks a question around here, and yes, I have heard that silence plenty of times.Enough that I've implemented a "24 hour rule" around here. It doesnt matter how busy I am, if I notice a question that has been left unanswered here on hairtell ( even if I dont know the answer) I will take the time to stop and give SOME KIND of acknolegement of the question, and to invite others to answer as well.

There are many professional or amatuer alike, who seek out Michaels advice and knowledge on a daily basis. I dont suppose they would consider his ramblings 2 faced or strange?

When a professional gives freely of their time and knowledgefor absolutely no benefit to themselves, I dont have a lot of empathy for the consumer who doesnt like how they communicate, ot tries to set them up as described. I'm in agreement is wasnt the type of behaviour we want to encourage around here and Michael is not wrong about that.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127001 - 06/16/18 06:25 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Now, where the hell did I leave my teeth?

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#127002 - 06/16/18 06:56 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
Seana, thank you for your input, I'm well aware of Michaels strengths, I've been around here for quite some time unbeknown to you and admittedly and objectively I agree with some of your points. I do not make statements on a whim.

That's an uneducated approach, fair to none and most damaging to myself.

I do appreciate your sentiments, because objectively from the history of your posts here I understand that you try to make an effort with people and be as supportive as possible.

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#127004 - 06/16/18 07:45 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By Michael Bono

Even if a person has something legitimate to praise and acclaim, I'm still offended. Let me be very clear: your question was a set-up. It was designed to make others look bad. You had an answer ready, before you asked. Your attitude is haughty and imperious.

It comes down to this: "my electrologist is the best, and you're inadequate!" That's a horrible attitude and worse yet when it comes with my friend's stamp of approval. Wow! Showing off and belittling others, without factual explanation, is not helpful and only adds to the confusion.

Still, if a person wants to claim they are superior to every other practitioner on the planet then they have an OBLIGATION to explain why that is?



What am I supposed to explain? How to insert a damn needle? How to get good releases? those are basic concepts that any professional knows very well.

I would like to be more explicit and self-critical, but honestly, I do not know what I said or did wrong in this whole matter.

Michael explains the results thanks to the use of local anesthesia. Well, that is a valid hypothesis, except for the fact that we have all heard the testimony of clients who go to marathon sessions under local anesthesia and all they have obtained is a lot of "instant regrowth".

I have never asked any client to praise my work. Moreover, on more than one occasion I have asked them to stop, but I will not apologize for trying to do my job well, and yes, I am proud to know that there is a happy client out there.

I do not think NARMA2018's purpose was to make others look bad. But, if that were the case, I hope that those who do it badly are considered alluded to and stop cheating people. For the rest, this thread will serve to attract electrolysis customers to their respective offices.

A few days ago I received a nice message from an Australian colleague. This is part of the content of that message:

"... Like many people he is inspired by your writing and photos on Hairtell. He is almost 6 months post laser, no shaving."


Probably that guy will achieve his goal of being hairfree thanks to the electrolysis and his Australian "hero". And who knows, maybe this thread has played a small role too.


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#127006 - 06/16/18 07:56 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Damn it I missed out on all this juicy drama! Can you all wait for me to wake up next time?

I kinda liked NARMA's initial ''deceit'' approach honestly, am I weird?

I've also learned to like Michael's ramblings, there's always something helpful in there. I'd love to be ''unbanned'' from his office but hey, can't force my friendship on anyone... LOVE ME ALREADY!!!!! LOL!

That's the thing, some of Josefa's posts (by others or herself) about results do make it seem like she's one step way ahead of everyone. That impression is just there, whether we like it or not. When I first came here I thought it was all bullshit (I thought Michael's 3 clearances was bullshit too, mind you), then after learning more and more about electro and talking to a few helpful people including herself, it does all make sense.

There are still a few things I can't fully wrap my head around (near-perfect kill rate and how sometimes the % of hairs showing is ridiculously high, for example), and I guess that is what's creating the ''hype'' around it, at least for me! Also, the only way to really figure out that effectiveness would be to experience it in person, but I always wonder if it would be possible to ''emulate'' the work with with every single electrologist (or DIY), hence all my endless questions...


Edited by zapmyface (06/16/18 08:10 PM)

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#127007 - 06/16/18 08:09 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Now, where the hell did I leave my teeth?


They're hanging from the toupee going round on the ceiling fan.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127008 - 06/16/18 09:30 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By NARMA2018
Seana, thank you for your input, I'm well aware of Michaels strengths, I've been around here for quite some time unbeknown to you and admittedly and objectively I agree with some of your points. I do not make statements on a whim.

That's an uneducated approach, fair to none and most damaging to myself.

I do appreciate your sentiments, because objectively from the history of your posts here I understand that you try to make an effort with people and be as supportive as possible.


Your post history here is limited to this thread.
This really tells it all doesnt it?

The very process of creating an account for the purpose of posting a troll against one electrologist or another is at best, disingenuous. The "my practioner is better because of X" died alongside the modality wars some time ago.

Yawn. Going back to my nap now.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127010 - 06/16/18 09:58 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Seana ... smooooooch!

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#127011 - 06/16/18 10:10 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28
I knew you would look at this which is why I said 'unbeknown' to you in advance. Hairtell is also explorable as an unregistered user, or maybe a registered user who has deleted their previous account, or has no access any longer to said account, or has a friend who posts here. The possibilities are endless, but my statement is still true.

Sleep well x

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#127013 - 06/16/18 11:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Is one of those possibilities you being Josefa's 15th account? I knew it! Finally CONFIRMED! We've all been fooled once again! Lol

NARMA, I'm curious, what's your take on why your treatment was this effective? I don't think you've chimed in with your opinion on the subject yet like we all did probably too much (or maybe you did and I missed it)!

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#127014 - 06/16/18 11:14 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
MelB77 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 09/08/17
Posts: 13
Just wanted to say I'm extremely grateful to all the professional electrologists who generously share their knowledge here. It's like Josefa's post said it inspires us to seek better treatment and gives hope.

Michael I was interested in your post about the benefits of local anaesthetic, it makes sense even though probably not easily assessible for most of us at this time. I look forward to your next chapter, knowledge is key and I thank you for sharing yours. Don't give a rats how old you are!

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#127015 - 06/16/18 11:46 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'll try to put this all together, even though my senility seems to be a problem at the moment. All the players in this conversation had different interests and objectives. As I said earlier, there are different conversations going on at the same time.

Zapmyface is clever and funny. I like him. He seriously wants answers. Absolute certitude, however, can't be attained and I think he gets it now.

Seana has been steadfastly calming the waters and has acted as the diplomat in this kerfuffle. Good show! Very kind person, Seana.

NARMA had his own troll-agenda and wanted to both proclaim his enthusiasm for Josefa (that's nice) and "trash" the rest of us (that's not nice). Still, that's fine. His tactic, however, blindsided Josefa who was an innocent bystander. I don't think she know what the hell happened.

As I said earlier, I refuse to have my clients promote my work ... for the reasons you have just experienced. This time, I was the pissed-off electrologist. If I may be snarky, I think NARMA is full-of-himself. Thesaurus in hand, his language usage is designed to show how smart he is. I don't like that sophomoric technique; maybe I see a little bit of myself in his character?

Mike (that's me) was focusing on general industry standards and not willing to get into a useless "bean counting" contest. There is no "truth" to proclaim. I will assert, however, that stunning and remarkable results are achieved using local anesthetic (it's simply the "holy grail"). The person talking about superior work using local (but not revealing that aspect) has a duty to tell the whole story and not "fudge" the details. Once the book is open, you can't close it!

I'll also add something about the "Rock Star Electrologist Syndrome." There are hundreds of electrologists that are just as capable as Josefa, Seana, Dee and me. You just never hear about them. They do their work quietly without accolades. I regularly send clients to Karen Stathis. Ever heard of her? She accomplishes work beyond anything you have ever seen on Hairtell.

Okay, my ramblings are over. And, I did get my toupee and teeth off the ceiling fan. But I fell and broke my hip! Heading for "the home?"

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#127016 - 06/17/18 12:47 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Can we all just blame those damn beans for everything and be happy:



P.S. Is it weird that I started counting them? I need help lol


Edited by zapmyface (06/17/18 12:52 AM)

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#127017 - 06/17/18 12:53 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By Michael Bono


Seana has been steadfastly calming the waters and has acted as the diplomat in this kerfuffle. Good show! Very kind person, Seana.




I'll also add something about the "Rock Star Electrologist Syndrome." There are hundreds of electrologists that are just as capable as Josefa, Seana, Dee and me. You just never hear about them. They do their work quietly without accolades. I regularly send clients to Karen Stathis. Ever heard of her? She accomplishes work beyond anything you have ever seen on Hairtell.

Okay, my ramblings are over. And, I did get my toupee and teeth off the ceiling fan. But I fell and broke my hip! Heading for "the home?"


I am NOT a rockstar electrologist!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127018 - 06/17/18 06:27 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
The problem with invisible electrologist rockstars is that all that effort goes unnoticed. Many know that Rita Hayworth underwent electrolysis in order to change her Latin appearance, but how many know the name of the person who carried out the treatments? I wonder if Mrs. Ethel Rifkin would have wanted or been able to maintain her anonymity in the age of technology.

There are many consumers who come to Hairtell to present their doubts and concerns before or during the electrolysis or laser process, but very few who return to tell how everything ended, especially if it is a happy ending. Apparently that was Narma's purpose. His "unforgivable" error for which he is being strongly condemned, was reversing the order of events and tell his success story beginning at the end. I guess because of his youth, competitive spirit, and why not, a little fun, he put to the test the knowledge of some experts involved here (myself included). As it was logical, the few experts who participated at the beginning did not disappoint and their answers deserve the qualification of outstanding, Dimi, Dee Fahey and Michael Bono. But then things got complicated and the hypothetical percentages, along with Zapmyface and his eternal search for "the truth", as well as his obsession to rid the world of "dark conspiracies", entered the scene.

I agree on this, Zapmyface is a smart guy who finds fun in conflicts. He is so smart that he found Michael's Achilles heel. Michael hates praise for both himself and others. So Zapmyface makes sure to insist on those "miraculous" results on every occasion. In this way, he pisses off more and more the man who dared to publicly reject him. At the same time, he enjoys watching how we face each other. Good move, dear, you've done checkmate!

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#127019 - 06/17/18 07:44 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 28

Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina
The problem with invisible electrologist rockstars is that all that effort goes unnoticed. Many know that Rita Hayworth underwent electrolysis in order to change her Latin appearance, but how many know the name of the person who carried out the treatments? I wonder if Mrs. Ethel Rifkin would have wanted or been able to maintain her anonymity in the age of technology.

There are many consumers who come to Hairtell to present their doubts and concerns before or during the electrolysis or laser process, but very few who return to tell how everything ended, especially if it is a happy ending. Apparently that was Narma's purpose. His "unforgivable" error for which he is being strongly condemned, was reversing the order of events and tell his success story beginning at the end. I guess because of his youth, competitive spirit, and why not, a little fun, he put to the test the knowledge of some experts involved here (myself included). As it was logical, the few experts who participated at the beginning did not disappoint and their answers deserve the qualification of outstanding, Dimi, Dee Fahey and Michael Bono. But then things got complicated and the hypothetical percentages, along with Zapmyface and his eternal search for "the truth", as well as his obsession to rid the world of "dark conspiracies", entered the scene.

I agree on this, Zapmyface is a smart guy who finds fun in conflicts. He is so smart that he found Michael's Achilles heel. Michael hates praise for both himself and others. So Zapmyface makes sure to insist on those "miraculous" results on every occasion. In this way, he pisses off more and more the man who dared to publicly reject him. At the same time, he enjoys watching how we face each other. Good move, dear, you've done checkmate!

You have my purpose and intention spot on, that is the most important thing. I lose absolutely no sleep over this.
I'm immune to such criticism unless it's constructive in which case I thrive on it to continuously improve myself. This is the fairest approach, sensible no?

So to the detractors, now knowing that you can't affect me, will you persist in this madness in which ultimately you harm only yourself?

I do not wish that you perish in your rage and wish you nothing but the best in life and health. We are all human, I forgive you guys. No hard feelings.

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#127023 - 06/17/18 09:16 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Thank you for noticing, ‘’dear’’, I thought no one ever would! This finally accomplishes my long-awaited revenge on electrologists, since one of you did scars on my face.
I feel AMAAAZING to have caused this much chaos!
(Evil mastermind response)

Well if you’re all ‘’facing each other’’ like you say, wouldn’t it mean that there are in fact valid points to be examined? I guess you’re right in saying that I’m enjoying the debates/conflicts, but maybe not for the reasons you think…
(Defensive response)

I guess we’re not blaming the beans after all!
I’m not getting treated by her either lol.
(Funny response)

I don't think it matters what I say at this point, so I'll let you all choose your favourite response!

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#127024 - 06/17/18 11:02 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
The reality of this excruciatingly long thread is that nothing new came of it and nothing was learned. A few ruffled feathers here and there, but we will all do quite well because, again, nothing happened. And, that's the nature of pretty much ALL on-line blogs such as this.

True progress in the field requires study, experimentation and scholarship. The only valid mediums are written papers, books or ... drum roll ... videos. I suppose I also have a diabolical side like zapmyface. Otherwise I wouldn't get on this site at all.

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#127028 - 06/17/18 01:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Funny thing, after reading Jossie's post I'm re-thinking NARMA.

He probably did his post without malevolent intentions. (Didn't expect the reaction it engendered.) Now I see the potential fun in what he was doing.

The combination of "spark plug" zapmyface (the liar stuff) and my sensitivities ramped this up (at least in my own mind). Yeah, I felt like a knife in the back ... but so what? Who cares?

On to the next atrocity ...

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#127029 - 06/17/18 02:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By NARMA2018

You have my purpose and intention spot on, that is the most important thing. I lose absolutely no sleep over this.
I'm immune to such criticism unless it's constructive in which case I thrive on it to continuously improve myself. This is the fairest approach, sensible no?

So to the detractors, now knowing that you can't affect me, will you persist in this madness in which ultimately you harm only yourself?

I do not wish that you perish in your rage and wish you nothing but the best in life and health. We are all human, I forgive you guys. No hard feelings.



Comments that are personally detracting are not allowed here. See the post "No personal Attacks" . That's why you'll never ever see me commenting in a poor light against another poster here.
Challenging the concepts or assertions made, is however fair game.

For this reason, I'm not likely to be "consumed with rage".

Since it's been indicated I'm "overly supportive" of folks around here, well, there 's good reason for that.

Did you know that I'm consumed with hate against Michael ( oh and Josepha too by the way!) ? Well, probably not, because it's not true. But that was the popular conception around here, I had a "severe hate on" for Michael because of something he did here, and it amounted, to taking unfair potshots at a long time rival here, in which he was advising one of their clients to take pictures and post them here while suing said other electrologist at the same time. Seems a good reason when you know all the details right? Except for that little bit about truth getting in the way, because it simply isnt the truth.
I'm supportive of anyone who contributes to the wealth of knowledge here at hairtell. Experience here has shown me that "my electrologist is better than you all" is generally, a very unproductive argument, there are no winners, only losers.

It happens that every so often a consumer comes along who for whatever reason feels it their duty to "expose such bad treatment" or whatever other transgression they feel one of the professionals here have made. It's happened to three senior members of hairtell, Michael, James, and Josepha and I'm still waiting on my turn, I'm sure it's coming!

As a result I've always tried to determine what is the most ethical approach to such situations. Clearly, if any member of this team ( and make no mistake about it, people like me, Dee, Josepha , Michael, dimi, Emancipated Elect, Beate, and others are VERY MUCH operating as a team) any unprofessional behaviour that affects that teams performance is very quickly rooted out , exposed, and then, put to bed.We all contribute here ( to no benefit of ourselves) .

That ethic, extends both ways.If a consumer comes here with an agenda, a post that effectively trolls against another user to the benefit of their electrologist, that falls pretty far from the ethics we try to have around here. A post to that effect isnt a lot different than one of us advising a client of another to take pictures of their private spaces in their office and exposing it to show what a horrible electrologist they are. Pretty much intentional trolls, are detrimental to everything we try and accomplish around here, and so, you will find me commenting of the FACTS of such cases, without degenerating into personal attacks or hate. Sorry but I wont be burning up in a firey ball anytime soon.I think that's true of most of the professionals here, you might get under the skin of one on rare occasion, but you'll find that we pretty quickly rally around and put the issue to bed, ETHICALLY. If your post isnt in good faith, it isnt ethical.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127031 - 06/17/18 03:39 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Thank you for noticing, ‘’dear’’, I thought no one ever would! This finally accomplishes my long-awaited revenge on electrologists, since one of you did scars on my face.
I feel AMAAAZING to have caused this much chaos!
(Evil mastermind response)

Well if you’re all ‘’facing each other’’ like you say, wouldn’t it mean that there are in fact valid points to be examined? I guess you’re right in saying that I’m enjoying the debates/conflicts, but maybe not for the reasons you think…
(Defensive response)

I guess we’re not blaming the beans after all!
I’m not getting treated by her either lol.
(Funny response)

I don't think it matters what I say at this point, so I'll let you all choose your favourite response!


I'm more interested in what YOU learned. Were your valid points addressed? Lets find out.

The bulk of your assertion, has been that Josephas success was "an impossibility". There were too many hidden hairs to have such a result. Well, let me throw another wrench into the works, supposing , just supposing, someone other than Josepha used the same methods she does to obtain those results? Would you expect those results to be equal to, better than, or worse than those achieved by Josepha? There's a really easy way to test this theory!

See here's what I'm getting at. Josepha ( and me too) have long maintained that her results can easily be duplicated, by simply using the same approach and methods. So in theory at least, if you were to come see me, and we treated the area identically to how she would have done it, would my results be as good? I know I definitely lack the 35 years experience she does working with her protocol, would that make a huge difference do you think?
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127033 - 06/17/18 05:09 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I never assumed it was impossible, the whole point was that it SEEMED to be extremely ahead of everyone else (and yes I hate that comparing crap too, but for this thread's argument it's sadly necessary). And then figure out why that is, and if whatever she's doing is different (or in this case ''better''), how exactly?

I learned a lot from this thread actually, and not just about electro. Most of the questions have been answered. There are, however, still uncertain aspects remaining that can only be fulfilled with, I'm guessing, experiencing it myself. A big part in me asking those questions were about, like you just said, being able to duplicate it for myself!

I'd expect more or less the same results if all the variables were the same, who wouldn't? Parameters in the machine can be perfectly replicated, so does treating every hair until it slides easily. The 2 differences I can think of are the usage of anesthetic (none vs injected vs EMLA) and operator skill, aka that ''uncertainty aspect'' (I'm guessing depth of the needle and maybe angle). I think that last variable alone can MULTIPLY the TTT, but that's just my opinion... Are there other variables we should be aware for our little test?

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#127034 - 06/17/18 05:38 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Ok let me explain a little more fully.

Josepha follows an entire protocol for this kind of work.It's based on what she has found to work.

I am assuming, maybe incorrectly, that she did blend on this client? If so she would be leaving heated lye in the follicle post treatment in addition to having dispersed enough energy to adequately release the hair. She would treat that hair ferociously, in her words "like it's the only hair that is important" . She would use a specific probe ( which I wont mention because I dont endorse that makers products) . She would prohibit the client from shaving or doing anything else to the hair for 6 months before.She would carefully control the timing between treatments. This and more, adds to the "recipe" that is that "protocol".
My question to you is this, can anyone, following that recipe that she has developed over 35 years, attain the same results as she does? Working with skill and accuracy?

The fact is, anyone, doing the same things, can accomplish the same results. But most/many refuse to even try.If you never try something, then you wont ever accomplish it.

And I'm sorry, the multiple depth technique , ( the multiple pulses at different depth of insertion) while a useful technique, does not hold up to the kill rate of accurate insertions to begin with.This is a skill that Josepha has in spades. Having watched countless hours of her working with an electrolysis probe I can tell you that her instincts are excellent ( spot on) and this is something you dont accomplish without great experience.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127036 - 06/17/18 08:06 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
It was said that both cases (the feet and the 2 clearances on the face) were thermolysis!

For the feet example, one single appointment of 72min was needed to remove almost every single hair, there are like 5 remaining in the ''after'' pic. That is literally a 90% (or more) kill rate, or should I even dare to say 100% if we assume that not all hairs were present at the time of the treatment (could very well be possible). Either way, let's agree that it was an almost perfect treatment and outcome. Not 3 or 10 appointments, ONE. Let's assume the worse and say that NARMA had trimmed the hair during those 6 months (he stated he already trimmed it, but unknown if it was during those months prior to his treatment), worst case scenario (considering the very thin variables of this case) would be 2 clearances instead of 1, with the same total time, 72min!!!!

And I hate to be falling into Josefa's narrative that I'm ''poking'' Michael by always reminding everyone that her treatments are ''miraculous'', but, let's face it, it pretty much can't get any better in terms of outcome, that's just a damn fact.

For the face example, the client didn't shave for 2 weeks before the appointment, nothing special there, and I quote:

Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina
Since this first clearance occurred about 2 weeks after the last shave. And since this time frame is insufficient for most of the telogenic hairs (20% according to some experts in trichology) to be visible / treatable, it seems plausible that more than 60% of the hairs of this male beard were not present at the beginning of the treatments.


The point is that an almost perfect kill rate is observed here too, with only 2 clearances, we can notice a significant reduction ON A DAMN MALE BEARD, you know, that thing everyone says it takes so much time to complete for whatever reason? As opposed to 1 clearance for the feet, and that's because the face had a much higher % of hidden hairs! And not only that, but according to that quote, I can only assume that more hairs could've been treated if the beard was untouched for a longer period of time prior to the appointment. Same, yet amazingly low, TTT too (46h)!

While I understand the timings and protocols are important, these 2 cases don't really present anything special, wouldn't you say? And if those cases worked extremely well, it's safe to assume similar cases WITH followed protocols should at the very least be just as effective, no? But where is the fucking improvement when there's already a near-perfect kill rate, it might subtract 1 or 2 clearances depending on % of visible hairs, but it changes absolutely nothing to the TTT.

So can this really be duplicated? If so, good! I wanna figure out how exactly, damn it. And it's what I've been trying to do! I know, I know, there will always be some parts that can't be certain or explained.


Edited by zapmyface (06/17/18 08:21 PM)

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#127037 - 06/17/18 08:40 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By zapmyface
It was said that both cases (the feet and the 2 clearances on the face) were thermolysis!


So can this really be duplicated? If so, good! I wanna figure out how exactly, damn it. And it's what I've been trying to do! I know, I know, there will always be some parts that can't be certain or explained.


You're right, I apparently had forgotten that tidbit. Josepha got known for doing mostly fast blend, but I've recently determined she works just as often in strait thermolysis. There's more proof for you, that modality doesnt matter.


And yes it can be duplicated. actually I near drove myself crazy trying to do exactly that back in the day, what exactly is the recipe? But in reality, you dont have enough knowledge to duplicate it, and we cant really teach you, without you having that firm base of knowledge. I can tell you it's all a process of stacking the odds in your favour, in every avenueand with every decision about the treatment.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127042 - 06/18/18 02:49 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
I didn't necessarily mean myself doing the zapping, I can technically ''make'' someone do it too. And I kinda have already (4h on my face test to see the regrowth, I've shown you pics of this already). Like you said I don't think modality or ''settings'' are a major factor, as long as the hair slides well it should be the same, right? Unless cranking up the current would have a much positive effect that can actually DIVIDE THE TTT BY A FEW NUMBERS.

As much as I would like to believe that it can be duplicated, it hasn't even come close, yet all the right odds seemed to have been ''stacked in my favour'' in the test too (asked many questions about this). I've said it many times before, I never thought my electrologist was crap, she's done this for 20 years and has lots of references in the trans community here! So why does it take Josefa literally one clearance on the face to accomplish what mine does in AT LEAST 5? And yes, that's a MULTIPLICATION OF 5 TIMES THE TTT too. Considering both electrologists are doing pretty much the same correct things with a baggage of experience on their hand, what makes the difference THIS great? Understand that I wouldn't even care if it was more or less a few hours, but we're talking about a multiplication here.

Please, please, please tell me you're understanding my obsession with this here. And thank you for not taking offence in anything I've said too, I really do appreciate it. I know this is a touchy subject.

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#127045 - 06/18/18 09:52 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 73
Zapmyface, I'm going to send you a private message, but please, stop insisting or you'll go crazy. There are people who work the same or better than me, but because of your demand background (which I do not blame you) or because of your high expectations (induced by some of my cases) they are being extremely cautious and conservative in the treatments.

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#127047 - 06/18/18 10:28 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1510
I'm not frustrated or upset.
LEt Josepha talk to you. She's very correct that driving yourself crazy over this is not healthy.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127048 - 06/18/18 10:50 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Let’s say you need surgery and have a choice between 2 doctors. One offering a 90% chance of success but seems to be very ‘’out of reach’’ and the other only a 60% chance, but conveniently placed near your place and ready for it, what would you do? Accept that the lesser choice is what you’re only gonna get, or try to have the best possible treatment?

Maybe I’m going at it the wrong way by trying to understand HOW the best treatment are possible, but the goal is the same. Please don’t mistake my thirst for knowledge for some accusatory unhealthy obsession. I’ll gladly be waiting for that PM!

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#127049 - 06/18/18 01:43 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA

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#127053 - 06/19/18 01:21 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
LOL, I wanna be that lady who needs to ''drop dead''!

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#127055 - 06/19/18 08:16 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3466
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Best line, if you watched 'til the end, is:

"No matter how we figured it, somebody didn't like how we figured it ... so, now it's 'every man ... including the old bag ... for himself'!"

A good sense of humor cures everything.


Edited by Michael Bono (06/19/18 08:17 AM)

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