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#126573 - 05/12/18 09:06 AM Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Hi All

Test: I'd be interested in your many professional opinions for work on the toes of the feet. Laser? Electrolysis? Time required? Clearances? Efficacy? Permanancy? Skin changes?

Please find attached the link below:








https://postimg.cc/gallery/gzzo1u88/

History of hair removal in these areas: Trimming only.


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/12/18 12:37 PM)

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#126576 - 05/12/18 10:07 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
dimi Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 80
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Easy treated with electrolysis.
Required 3 clearances spread apart in 2-3 months to catch all hair growth cycles.Outcome-permanent.Skin change-none, only temporary side effects.

Laser outcome- unknown.Posible laser induced hair growth.

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#126577 - 05/12/18 10:11 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
With electrolysis:

I'd say roughly 3 - 5 clearances with a TTT of 6 - 10 hours (est. on the high side). Furthermore, with 99% certainty, you will have PIH, post inflammatory hyperpigmentation (little post-treatment dark spots) that will last up to a year; and go away totally. For a while, the spots will look like you still have hair.

Well-performed electrolysis will render your feet permanently hair-free for the rest of your life ... guaranteed.

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#126578 - 05/12/18 10:38 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9670
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I second those facts! You can bet on electrolysis, in any form, to give you permanent hair removal.

I personally like high intensity thermolysis with quick timing for this area because this area can sensitive. For sensation issues, it's like pulling the band-aid off quickly and most clients like that approach, by zapping the area "quick like a bunny!".

YES, expect some temporary skin side effects, especially, post inflammatory hyperpigmentation (brown dots). Depending on your immune system and the amount of energy needed to make the hair slide, these brown dots may take several weeks? months? or even a year to fade away. THEY WILL FADE AWAY, so don't flip out if this is how your skin reacts. It will be all worth it and you will have clear, hairless skin for the rest of your life.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#126580 - 05/12/18 10:52 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Great feedback. Keep it coming...

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#126581 - 05/12/18 11:02 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Yeah! Nicely, we have identified the most likely "side effect." When patients are told ... they are less likely to panic. Eyes wide open! Please, fellow zappers, full disclosure will make everybody's life so much easier!

My UCLA eye surgeon was not so forth coming. I wanted the pre- and post-op instructions (in writing) but his staff would not send them to me (never responded to calls or three letters over a 4-week period).

So, I drove to UCLA (100 miles in the L.A. freeway nightmare) and got the documents (post-op only). It comprised 3-pages (single spaced) of post-op instructions and side-effects. A monumental list, including laying on my face for three days (day and night), no driving in a car for three weeks, no swimming for a month (the worst one for me), pain and bleeding from the eye ... etc.

Q. How was I supposed to drive back to Santa Barbara (100 miles) "on my face?" Maybe strapped to the hood like the old Pontiac Indian hood ornament?

I quit! (I also quit, because they had me scheduled for a heart valve replacement). Great surgeon. The staff was very nice but ridiculous (not one was a native English speaker, and I could hardly understand them). Lucky I quit, because the UCLA nursing staff (most of them) went out on STRIKE! UCLA is a medical factory.

(So, I'm back to surgeon "Steve Couvillion." Fun, I suppose, because I taught him how to sail when he was 12-years-old and I was 24.) Hope he remembers it's my "Starboard" (not "Port") eye!

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#126582 - 05/12/18 12:33 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Michael are you suggesting to share the work out over the 3-5 clearances?

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#126590 - 05/13/18 04:30 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Is someone able to give me an estimation on what percentage of hairs are present at the time of the photo?

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#126592 - 05/13/18 09:14 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
I think I know what you're asking!

By clearances, they mean get rid of all the hairs in the area 3-5 times, not one pass that will take 3-5 appointments. Depending on the electrologist, not every hair will be killed after a zap (it will regrow), that's why you're gonna have to come back a few times.

And like you said, there are also several hidden hairs at any time. I tried to find the percentage (on my face) and I'm pretty sure there were at least 40% hidden, but the body is probably different. I don't think there's a way to know for sure, plus I can't seem to find too much info on this...


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 09:19 AM)

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#126593 - 05/13/18 10:05 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Interesting, I don't believe Michael's reply to be deliberately vague just my flawed understanding. From my understanding one clearance is removal of all hair present. Second clearance is all hair present after first clearance etc. If electrolysis can destroy the hair first time around why 3-5 clearances? Assuming you have a good electrologist. Unless it's due to reaction etc which is what I'm trying to ascertain.

You make a good point with regards hair in different areas on body (hormones/genetics)

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#126594 - 05/13/18 10:09 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Whilst we have fun conversations, "Zapmyface" your post illustrates this electrologists eternal frustration with Hairtell: patients offering suggestions/data/definitive answers to other patient's questions; that are inherently incorrect/misleading or even dangerous.

Except for Dee (decades of experience) and Seana (new to the trade), here are virtually no electrologists on this forum because of this one salient reality.

It's like this, after explaining something 350,000 times (to newbies) you can't "freakin" do it anymore. Sure, it sounds new to "y'all" ... it's ancient history to me (us). I know the answer, but won't "go there" for the one-thousandth time. One answer creates five more questions, and on-and-on.

For example somebody, again, is going to post about the horrors of those "permanent" dark dots. Every electrologist will read it and think, "Oh, not this shit again!"

What about a forum that has, for example, a REAL dermatologist that can answer "skin questions" once-and-for-all ... instead of the "pissing in the wind" that is the foundation of most on-line forums? It's something that MIGHT happen in the getting-more-distant future.

Here's the deal: TALK TO YOUR ELECTROLOGIST! Go there first and ask your questions. Maybe read something or watch some videos. If it doesn't make sense, then go to the internet and "ask the world!" That's what I do! (Yeah, I know, people don't read and they want quick answers ... won't watch entire 10-minute videos either.)

Is this what they call a "Mic drop?"

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#126595 - 05/13/18 10:30 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Answer: go on-line and look-up "hair shedding cycle." Therein lies your answer.

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#126596 - 05/13/18 10:33 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Thank you Michael we got there in the end. Are you able to give an estimation of the hair present in the photo?

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#126598 - 05/13/18 10:56 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
What was incorrect in what I said? You don't necessarily have to explain but you could simply tell me what part.

If it's about that ''100% kill rate'' nonsense again I'm gonna have to argue about it... Not because I think that you're wrong, but because of the reality that not every electrologist is as good or experienced as you. You might do that 3 clearance method, but wouldn't you say that what (most?) people experience with other electrologists is much different?

Actually when I answer those types of question, I exactly think about how tiring it must be to explain the same thing over and over, which is why I'm trying to lift some work off the pro's shoulders sort of speak. Granted it's my understanding of it so it could be inherently flawed, however I'm always here to learn.

If you were talking about the % of hidden hairs, I've honestly never seen any numbers about it anywhere (or if I did it was pretty vague). Is this in your book?

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#126599 - 05/13/18 11:16 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Yep, in the book(s) ... mine and all the others: front and center.

I think it's about who/what y'all want to be: informed patients (getting good work), becoming an electrologist, the love/fun of "advice giving" (?).

I don't want to quell anybody's enthusiasm, but the answers are there if a person takes the time to read. Imagine going on an automotive blog and asking, "Why do I have to change the oil?" Then followed by, "What is a piston ring?" Followed by, "How does and IC engine work?"

Still, the best option is to ask your electrologist first. Sure many ARE dolts and have read little-to-nothing themselves, (God bless the unlicensed States!). Maybe asking them pointed questions MIGHT encourage them to do a little reading/studying too? I'm doubtful though ... "don't confuse me with the facts!"

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#126600 - 05/13/18 11:42 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
Well my enthusiasm comes from conflicting or vague answers from different electrologists or sources, I'd love to know the truth, that's it. Coincidentally I got conflicting answers with dermatologists too. Which is why I've learned to have extreme skepticism over beauty-related subjects (and why I'm doing my own tests for the most important questions I've got).

You'd be surprised to know that I've read quite a bit of free sources already (and watched all your videos as far as I remember), but I agree that I should probably get on with those more in depth books like yours or Hinkel's (edit: actually I've been reading it for an hour now, I WILL FINISH IT AS SOON AS I CAN!)

I guess Seana was right all along in saying what everyone else was thinking. I'll stop giving my very ''adapted for the client from a client'' simple advice (that I still think I'm right about, at least in my own personal reality of electro).

Actually I'm still unsure as to what I've said was incorrect, anybody else that's not tired of answering those questions can explain? (no rude intent here, I completely understand why some won't)


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 12:50 PM)

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#126602 - 05/13/18 12:55 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Now, that's a reasonable question: "How many hairs in the photo?"

Simple: if you have not shaved (or plucked) the area you are looking at (plus/minus)40% -to- (maximum)50% of the follicles in the area.

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#126603 - 05/13/18 01:53 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Thank you Michael

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#126605 - 05/13/18 03:02 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Answer: Opinions are subjective the "Proof is in the pudding". Please see photo below taken in May 2018.



Long answer: Toes treated using Electrolysis (flash thermolysis) in July 2012. One clearance only. Time taken to treat both feet approximately 60 minutes. As you can see considering the time elapsed (6 Years) all hairs treated have not returned, skin condition has actually improved. No other method of hair removal used in the period.

Point of this thread: Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. Sessions need not to be planned, you can get it right first time independent of the phase with a competent electrologist, in this case Josefa M Reina.

Forgive me for initially feigning ignorance, it was necessary for me to achieve my goal and showcase the results. Looking forward to your responses. At least we can be united on applauding the results right? smile

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#126606 - 05/13/18 03:24 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
WE'VE ALL BEEN FOOLED LOL I'M SCREAMING AT MY SCREEN!!!

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#126607 - 05/13/18 03:30 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
This proves my point I think though, not everyone will have this achieved in 1 clearance (or even 3-5). This is actually what irks me about electrologists (conflicting results and answers). I can guarantee you that you'd spend several clearances (10+) and several total hours (10+?) with the electrologist that did a chunk of my face (not you Dimi : ). And I never thought she was bad, just wondered if it was efficient or not.

So how the f*** can someone do this in one simple 30min clearance when others have to spend 10x more money and time for the same results?!


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 03:32 PM)

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#126608 - 05/13/18 03:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
What do you think of the results? wink

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#126609 - 05/13/18 03:35 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
You won't like me but I'm actually very annoyed by the results. I'm happy for you though.

I just wanna add that I consider most electrologists pretty good (all have pros and cons), but I have a fascination with efficiency.

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#126610 - 05/13/18 04:08 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By zapmyface
This proves my point I think though, not everyone will have this achieved in 1 clearance (or even 3-5). This is actually what irks me about electrologists (conflicting results and answers). I can guarantee you that you'd spend several clearances (10+) and several total hours (10+?) with the electrologist that did a chunk of my face (not you Dimi : ). And I never thought she was bad, just wondered if it was efficient or not.

So how the f*** can someone do this in one simple 30min clearance when others have to spend 10x more money and time for the same results?!


Lol. Brilliant right, are you a believer now? Get it right first time? Good question, I could sit here and tell you although I feel that would be minimizing Josefas dedication and skill set and I have no authority over this. I hope she can make an appearance and discuss further the results for us, enlighten both new and old members of this forum.

Your fascination is a noble pursuit, I've always found her very personable and willing to share her knowledge, the problem may be other electrologists who are not receptive to taking time to understand through the rigours of research and application, which culminates in lesser results quite frankly.

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#126611 - 05/13/18 04:37 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'm glad you told us it was my beloved Josefa. (I thought so!)

Here's what you have to understand. When a patient asks questions such as "how long ... etc.," on this blog ... I think about the reality of the work that most will encounter. So, the parameters are wide.

Were you to ask me what I personally would do ... well, that's a different answer.

You will need two more clearance to get 100% of the hairs. This photo looks great and thanks for it.

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#126612 - 05/13/18 04:58 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
I'm glad you told us it was my beloved Josefa. (I thought so!)

Here's what you have to understand. When a patient asks questions such as "how long ... etc.," on this blog ... I think about the reality of the work that most will encounter. So, the parameters are wide.

Were you to ask me what I personally would do ... well, that's a different answer.

You will need two more clearance to get 100% of the hairs. This photo looks great and thanks for it.


Not a problem at all, the pleasure is all mine as a happy client. I appreciate your feedback.

It's interesting, I actually consider this 100 % and have no intention to have treatment in this area again. Some clients can be overly particular, I'm not one of them. Other areas that are more visible and hard to manage in terms of maintenance or removal I can understand being particular about.

What would you say the percentage reduction here is Michael?

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#126613 - 05/13/18 05:07 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
To be fair I'll only believe it when I see it on my body, nothing personal against anyone but my brain is wired like that. I'd love to be treated by her and witness it myself actually, but I don't wanna impose since I've heard she has a lot of clients/was retired/no clue how to even ask for treatments.

I've seen a few pictures of Josefa's work on this forum (I remember that 2? clearance post on a male beard that removed a good majority of hair somewhere that impressed me). I'd hate to compare electrologists so I'll just compare stories...

1- Josefa's male beard client:

- I'm assuming 2 travels, 2 clearances, doesn't really matter the length of treatment time (FOR ME)
- Didn't have to think about electro and suffer except on 2 damn travel occasions

Result:

- Majority of his beard gone
- Barely no downtime, suffering or damage RELATIVE to the time elapsed

2- Me:

- 60?+ travels, 50? clearances (granted it's near my house but still)
- Having to think about it and suffer (almost) every week

Result:

- Scars on my face (unnoticeable now but still there)
- 1/4 of my beard is gone, and I'm really being generous, plus a few body areas appearing to be a bit thinned
- Having to constantly think about electro every single damn week causes some ''emotional tiredness'' and motivation goes down the toilet if no end in sight (at that rate it will take what, 5 years or more!?)
- Constant temporary skin reactions (my skin looks like crap for weeks if not months after a treatment, and no I don't even mind... just pointing it out for other people with similar stories)

Am I freaking unlucky or something?! And I know that there are people worse off than me! I'm just pointing out the extreme differences! I didn't include total treatment time because it's really not that important FOR ME (a lot of subjectivity in this post). And before some of you feel sorry for me (or think I'm just lying, that's fine too), please know that I'm actively working towards a better approach/efficiency for myself (been testing for 2 months now and will start again once I'm satisfied with my conclusions).

This is mostly a rant lol, sorry.


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 05:23 PM)

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#126614 - 05/13/18 06:19 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Photos looks like 50 - 60% reduction. And, this is (actually) what body hair should do.

There are ways to "find" your right therapist, and remember it mostly depends on WHO is doing the work. Whenever I'm heading for a procedure of any kind, I literally take a year to make up my mind. Very little depends on "reputation, nice office, degrees, etc."

How "bad" can it get? Some years ago, I went to another country as an expert witness on an underarm case. (I was already there ... so it was easy.) The woman had 240 hours of work on her underarms and the therapist estimated she was "half done."

(I have never exceeded 8 hours and it's usually a 4 - 6 hour job (total). This area is guaranteed


The patient LOST the hearing, because nobody could produce STANDARDS OF PRACTICE. Therein is the number one problem for consumers. No guidelines, no standards ... no "NOTHIN'!"

Imagine if you had a brake job on your car, and the mechanic said, "Well, we can't give you an estimate. Could be $500, could be $5,000!" Instead, mechanics have their "magic book" that lists the parts and the average hours necessary to do the job. So, mechanics always give you a pretty good estimate.

Standards of Practice for electrology (or laser for that matter), ain't gonna happen. We tried, to no avail. Clients don't know the right questions to ask ... I will get around to it after I get my eye torn out and all healed up.

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#126615 - 05/13/18 06:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
Originally Posted By NARMA2018
Answer: Opinions are subjective the "Proof is in the pudding". Please see photo below taken in May 2018.



Long answer: Toes treated using Electrolysis (flash thermolysis) in July 2012. One clearance only. Time taken to treat both feet approximately 60 minutes. As you can see considering the time elapsed (6 Years) all hairs treated have not returned, skin condition has actually improved. No other method of hair removal used in the period.

Point of this thread: Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. Sessions need not to be planned, you can get it right first time independent of the phase with a competent electrologist, in this case Josefa M Reina.

Forgive me for initially feigning ignorance, it was necessary for me to achieve my goal and showcase the results. Looking forward to your responses. At least we can be united on applauding the results right? smile




AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126616 - 05/13/18 06:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
Oh I know what questions to ask (you already said it on another post) and I already have my estimate, I just don't think it's efficient compared to you for example. It would truly take 5 years or more to finish my beard at the rate I was going.

The difference between 8 vs 240 hours is disgustingly staggering. Even double the time is unfair enough...

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#126617 - 05/13/18 06:47 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Well my enthusiasm comes from conflicting or vague answers from different electrologists or sources, I'd love to know the truth, that's it. Coincidentally I got conflicting answers with dermatologists too. Which is why I've learned to have extreme skepticism over beauty-related subjects (and why I'm doing my own tests for the most important questions I've got).

You'd be surprised to know that I've read quite a bit of free sources already (and watched all your videos as far as I remember), but I agree that I should probably get on with those more in depth books like yours or Hinkel's (edit: actually I've been reading it for an hour now, I WILL FINISH IT AS SOON AS I CAN!)

I guess Seana was right all along in saying what everyone else was thinking. I'll stop giving my very ''adapted for the client from a client'' simple advice (that I still think I'm right about, at least in my own personal reality of electro).

Actually I'm still unsure as to what I've said was incorrect, anybody else that's not tired of answering those questions can explain? (no rude intent here, I completely understand why some won't)


And this, was the point of my comments to you. It's very difficult to tell you "what's wrong with what your saying " or what part is incorrect, when you dont have a full understanding of the topic. So I've tried to refer you over to those sources that can help with that. I'm afraid my time is limited these days and sometimes, its better that you seek that knowledge from the source than my trying to regurgitate it.

I have a third text I'm going to recommend to you, I want to make sure I have all the information right for it so I'll wait till I'm at the office and have it in my hot little hands.

SO, I know you're resistant to "learning the art of electrology" but the answers you seek, the "big picture" is well part of the art of electrology. I cant teach you everything you need to know, but if you're jumping in to answer qquestions in an effort to be "helpful" well, I can tell you it wasnt that many years ago I got the same reaction to a very similar effort. I can still hear Michael complaining about the "authority" with which I communicated completely incorrect or irrelelvant information. So I'll tell you the same thing the then moderator James Walker told me "We want you asking, and answering , questions." But we also want that information to be correct, and the best way for us to do THAT, is to teach you all about electrology. So that you can see the "big picture".

It's really tempting to jump in with that "one key bit" but I urge you to ask question, rather than authoritive statements. You need to learn how those "key bits" fit in with all the other bits before offering them up as advice.

And I can tell you, that that is EXACTLY how I got my start in electrology.

I'm not really a bitch you know. Well some days I can be, but in general, no.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126618 - 05/13/18 06:57 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
NARMA2018, you only got electro on the toes (and not the midfoot/front), right? If so, I count approximatively 150 visible hairs on those in your ''before'' picture, and around 10 in your ''after''.

I'm no expert, but if we account that a good % (let's say 50% for simplicity) of hairs weren't visible at the time, wouldn't this mean that the total number of hairs would be around 300? And since a 100% ''kill rate'' will only remove the visible hairs (150), wouldn't that mean that there would be 150 remaining? Yet there are only 10 visible ones on the 2nd pic, does that mean 140 are hidden?!

If you truly did only get a single clearance, it would mean that most (if not all) of the hairs were visible when you got treated, and that they pretty much all got successfully zapped, no?

I WANNA GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS... EXPLAIN THAT HAIRTELL!

(Edited for clarity and wrong math on my part)


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 08:07 PM)

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#126619 - 05/13/18 07:04 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
Seana, I agree that I need to learn everything about electro (even if I don't necessarily wanna practice it)! I actually started reading Hinkel's book today.

Also, it was never my intention to be knowledgable, I always assumed that everyone knew I was a newbie and was mostly asking questions (there are often interrogations in-between my ''statements'').

In my head I always sound like I'm saying a question or unsure information, but in writing maybe some people saw that I tried to be that annoying person trying to give advice on every single post he saw lol.

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#126620 - 05/13/18 07:08 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Narma, did you have local anesthetic with the procedure?

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#126621 - 05/13/18 08:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Good point. Yes that's my guess too all were visible. For me this is 95 percent plus reduction from what was there originally. Michael 50%?

My theory: You know when killer whales attack a great white and kill it by holding it in tonic immobility essentially suffocating it.
A decaying shark sends a chemical signal to other sharks of the same species to flight instead of fight. The other great whites dive down to unprecedented depths and flee the area. They'd rather dive deep and cross oceans than encounter killer whales. Well, basically the hidden hairs know Josie is around and for the last 6 years reside at unprecedented depths. smile

https://youtu.be/U_j5UC1ykcY

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#126622 - 05/13/18 08:13 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
NARMA2018 Offline
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Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Narma, did you have local anesthetic with the procedure?


That's right Michael with local anaesthetic.

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#126624 - 05/13/18 09:48 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
NArma,
Wow I'm super surprised that you used anesthetic on the toes. I suppose I shouldnt be? While I've had some clients endure endless treatments on the fingers and toes without complaint, I've had others tell me it was very uncomfortable to have done.But I have never had anyone use so much as a topical on their fingers or toes, and it's an area I'm called to work on fairly frequently.

Now the answer to your question zapmyface, how is it Josepha can treat and destroy so many of the hairs at once? The answer, lies in both skill, and implementation.Josepha has brute experience ( over 30 years) which mean she is highly skilled. This skill level is essential to doing that level of work.And it's a matter of targeting the right place with enough energy to accomplish the kill.So , what's the trick?
With any area, Josepha starts by instructing the client to do nothing at all, to the hairs.Not shaved, not waxed ,plucked, just leave the area alone. Areas like fingers and toes, tend to get a lot of hairs staying in the follicle for long periods after their growth cycle.So You'll find a large percentage of hairs in telogen in that area, and only a few in anogen.By instructing the client to not do anything to the area, for up to a year if possible, there will be the maximum number of hairs present to be treated. And Josepha knows she can kill hair in ANY stage of hair growth by targeting the stem cells present in the bulge of the follicle.
So when you combine the maximum number of hair follicles available for treatment with highly skilled insertions targeting the specific area needed to disable the hair, a practised eye able to easily distinguish one hairs growth phase from another prior to epilation , you end up with a higher percentage of the hair follicles killed in a single session.
That'sa little bit, about why people like Michael or Josepha's treatments are able to be done in so few clearances.For the rest, you have to learn how to zap and actually experience it and gain experience like Josepha posesses.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126626 - 05/13/18 10:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
I see, while I have no issue believing that she can kill pretty much every hair visible at the time (ok there's a part of me that thinks it's a bit too good to be true, but I'm open to it), wouldn't that prove that there was almost no ''hidden'' hairs at that time.

So this quote from Michael on this same thread is actually false (unless my understanding is false):
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Now, that's a reasonable question: "How many hairs in the photo?"

Simple: if you have not shaved (or plucked) the area you are looking at (plus/minus)40% -to- (maximum)50% of the follicles in the area.


Sorry to put you on the spot Michael, but I need to know the truth!

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#126627 - 05/13/18 10:30 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'm not on the spot, because I don't do "truth." "Truth" is for religions.

Most importantly is the treatment benefit of local anesthetic ... the big "red herring" in electrology. Not just pain, but in the actual treatment itself. This subject deserves a book, say, of about 150 pages.

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#126628 - 05/13/18 10:37 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
[/quote]

Sorry to put you on the spot Michael, but I need to know the truth!
[/quote]

You sound like Mulder from the X-files. You do have a point though.


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/13/18 10:39 PM)

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#126629 - 05/13/18 10:44 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Thing is, I have never been a "bean counter." I'm interested, as I say so often people "roll their eyes," it's the total treatment time that counts ... ONLY! Indeed, some people seem to get better results from one clearance ... others, not so much. However, in 3-shots over, you'll be done.

People want to count hairs ... count seconds ... count the rings of Saturn. It all comes down to the time you take to finish the job. The idea of "truth" seem to connote the notion that somebody is "hiding the truth." Puleeze!

And, putting me in the same sentence with Josefa is not accurate. She has much better results than I do. Looking at that original hairy foot, I'd say I would need 1-hour for ONE foot alone. Maybe I'll look at the photo again, but at the moment I'm too lazy. Been sanding floors all day.

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#126630 - 05/13/18 11:07 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
Well it seems like at least one of us 3 has said ''a lie'' (sorry the translation here sounds weird). I'm 100% prepared for it to be me with my possible flawed understanding, but there are other possibilities too... It could be NARMA's deceitful picture (more than one clearance for example), or Michael's statement that approximatively 50% hairs were present at the time (it could be that for toes, the % is much higher, think almost 95%, than other body parts for example).

It might seem trivial for you, but I love little details like these! However I'm wondering if I should stop pushing this further since I've probably annoyed too many people in the past few days already...


Edited by zapmyface (05/13/18 11:09 PM)

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#126631 - 05/13/18 11:17 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
There's also the possibility that we're all correct and that this specific case was some sort of extreme luck in the sense that at that specific time, all was aligned for all the hairs to be present and Josefa actually killing all of them. That sounds like a good compromise right?

I GOT A BETTER ONE, NARMA IS IN FACT JOSEFA PROMOTING HER SERVICES! I SEE YOU NOW! Just kidding!

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#126632 - 05/13/18 11:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
"Flawed, deceitful, LIES." LIES?? Your words ... damn, what a Schmuck!

You are thinking like an engineer ... humans are biological and cannot be squeezed into your "truth." By the way, there is no way in hell that you'd ever be a client of mine. Just saying.

Over the years, when I dared give my own on-line estimates, I would get real hate mail from other electrologists! One zapper in New York called and screamed on the phone, "How dare you ..." One very graphic lecture to an association resulted in a near riot of animosity ...

So, navigating this sensitive "estimates" subject has to be politically correct, or you will suffer the consequences (Josefa has suffered these too). I try to give "estimates" that are general, and will be satisfactory to other operators; within the scope of probability.

One thing for absolute certain, I will never offer such suggestions again. I don't do "gottcha!" And, I don't count beans! Annoyed? Well, you got that right!

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#126633 - 05/14/18 12:05 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
Hey hey now, I've been nothing but respectful to you and everyone and tried to find a good compromise in this thread.

It had nothing to do with your estimates, but simply about the normal amount (or %) of hidden hairs at any given time on a normal human body (or area).

I have no clue about it, which is why I'm trying to find ''the truth'', or some kind of understanding of it. I guess my words didn't translate well since I would never want to annoy anyone...

Actually hearing you say that you wouldn't want me as a client truly makes me feel horrible, since I was hoping I'd get to have a chance with you after you got your surgery. Oh well!

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#126640 - 05/14/18 11:25 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
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Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
Here's your addition to your reading list:
Cosmetic & Medical Electrolysis & Temporary Hair Removal by Dr . Richards and G.E. MEharg R.N.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126644 - 05/14/18 03:17 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
I just read this entire thread again to see what the f*** happened and I've concluded that my personality and ideas aren't too welcomed on this forum. If I ever decide to start electro again I'll be sure to never ask any questions and try to not care as much, it's for the best!

Best wishes to all, see ya!

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#126646 - 05/14/18 03:44 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1816
Loc: London, UK
I read a couple of posts only.

Seems like zapmyface has a hard time believing Josefa's work. But that's why she's Josefa. I think the biggest hurdle in other electrologist's results being incomparable is because they don't know that this kind of work is possible and how to go about achieving it. How many years have we been on HairTell for now? And in this time did Josefa EVER stop trying to improve her own work? She tried and tested Laurier probes everyone else was too sceptical about the improvements they offer to bother. All the people I know personally (including my own family members) have been happy with 1-2 clearances for body work.

For me, Michael quotes a (still respectable) 3-5 clearances to accommodate the fact that not every electrologist is going to kill every hair they treat. Not every client is going to show up with an area they haven't touched in 6 months prior. Not every first clearance is going to clear 100% of the hairs in the area even if said client does. However, assuming hairs removed/min is roughly the same between two electrologists, the TTT should be roughly the same.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126647 - 05/14/18 03:54 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
omg stop taking it personally. I just told you, we WANT you asking questions,we want you to dig out those fears. I can personally tell you, that it was exactlythe same when I came here with all of my fears,preconceptions, and hunt for knowledge. Not welcomed?Nonsense! You've been told countless times to challenge those notions you dont understand and question. Believe me when I tell you, there is no one here going "We arent gonna welcome this person because they question everything".
I've tried to guide you in a posative direction and outlet for those questions and insecurities.

Years ago, Dee challenged some factoid I was talking about. I remember commenting to Michael( privately)that I believed Dee hated me. Michael was quick to point out this was far from the case, and in fact,he was Right, Dee is a sweetheart and one of my favourite professionals to work with.It's easy to take offense in a text only medium when vocal and visual cues that indicate a different inflection are absent.

Stop being offended!No offense has been taken by anyone here.

Your entrance into hairtell reminds me a LOT of my own some years ago. Complete with the same "everyone is against me" insecurities. Truth be told, more than a few of them were rooting for me, not being dismissive. I see that same passion in you, which is why I've done my best to encourage you.
Dont let the internal gremlins, over-rule that passion.

Seana
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126648 - 05/14/18 03:57 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By zapmyface
Well it seems like at least one of us 3 has said ''a lie'' (sorry the translation here sounds weird). I'm 100% prepared for it to be me with my possible flawed understanding, but there are other possibilities too... It could be NARMA's deceitful picture (more than one clearance for example), or Michael's statement that approximatively 50% hairs were present at the time (it could be that for toes, the % is much higher, think almost 95%, than other body parts for example).

It might seem trivial for you, but I love little details like these! However I'm wondering if I should stop pushing this further since I've probably annoyed too many people in the past few days already...


That's understandable. Perspective is a great thing, which is why I understand you. There is a lot of charlatans out there, everyone has their presentiments and you should not be admonished for them. That being said I am not one of them nor do I consider lying to be the staple of my diet, nor am I offended easily by your suggestions even if others consider them abhorrent. So staying true to myself and objectivity continue reading.

I can tell you that only one clearance was necessary. Josefa gets it right first time. You make a good point about the hidden hairs etc, Josie will be able to explain this more effectively with clarity.

Just be patient and check back to this thread eventually all will be made clear.


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/14/18 04:00 PM)

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#126649 - 05/14/18 04:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
I think it's not a case of believing the work as hairtell is replete with examples of the efficacy of Josefas work, more so where are the hidden hairs? This is what he asked and he's just a little confused.

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#126650 - 05/14/18 05:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1816
Loc: London, UK
Fair enough.

I can see you have a lot of just emerging hairs in the first photo. How long had you left the area alone for before the first treatment?

For zapmyface: From my understanding, Josefa has said that if a client presents with a body area that hasn't had any kind of hair removal for coming up to 6 month + then approx 85-90% of the total active follicles will have hairs (mostly telogen and some anagen) present. So in a perfect scenario, if ALL these follicles are treated and all are destroyed, by 3 months later the only hairs that will be present were those 10-20% that weren't present at the first clearance.
But let's say, more realistically, about 10% of the present hairs don't get treated (either they are missed due to swelling or the follicle is not destroyed). So, 3 months later,you will have the 10-20% that weren't present plus that 10%.

In NARMA's case the hairs are nice and thick, I would expect that it's possible to completely clear all at the first treatment. My sister's case was very similar.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126651 - 05/14/18 06:11 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By stoppit&tidyup
Fair enough.

I can see you have a lot of just emerging hairs in the first photo. How long had you left the area alone for before the first treatment?

For zapmyface: From my understanding, Josefa has said that if a client presents with a body area that hasn't had any kind of hair removal for coming up to 6 month + then approx 85-90% of the total active follicles will have hairs (mostly telogen and some anagen) present. So in a perfect scenario, if ALL these follicles are treated and all are destroyed, by 3 months later the only hairs that will be present were those 10-20% that weren't present at the first clearance.
But let's say, more realistically, about 10% of the present hairs don't get treated (either they are missed due to swelling or the follicle is not destroyed). So, 3 months later,you will have the 10-20% that weren't present plus that 10%.

In NARMA's case the hairs are nice and thick, I would expect that it's possible to completely clear all at the first treatment. My sister's case was very similar.


The hair in this area was only ever trimmed. The emerging hair may have been hair that was growing back/broken? The feet especially the toe areas rub on socks and footwear itself, the friction has to be taken into account also, do you agree?


Edited by NARMA2018 (05/14/18 06:16 PM)

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#126653 - 05/14/18 06:24 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1816
Loc: London, UK
Yes, that would explain it.

I'm not sure about friction being a factor unless the hairs were fine and shallow.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126654 - 05/14/18 06:38 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1816
Loc: London, UK
I just read a bit more, Seana gave a great explanation.

I see the point of contention is the 50%. But it doesn't really matter. The first clearance wouldn't produce such obvious results if only 50% were present, so the client would need at least a second clearance but again, all else equal, the total treatment time over the two sessions would be the same.

I understand why it's irritating that clients focus on numbers but it IS important for us. Because the numbers end up in how much time and money are being spent.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126655 - 05/14/18 11:34 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
From my perspective (40+ years and thousands of patients), I keep it simple.

If, for example, I give an estimate of 12 hours for a person's body section, that's a number they can rely on. I tell all clients that the first clearance will result in 50% visual reduction. Why? Who knows what they're doing ... or have done? Many factors influence the number of hairs seen at the first clearance.

Even in a never-shaved area, these numbers are significantly affected by many factors and change during a person's lifetime. The ratio of anagen/telogen and exogen hairs. Areas that could be abraded, such as toes. Previous waxing or shaving? ... Still, none of it really matters, and I see no need to go into lengthy explanations when the end result will be the same anyway.

If I were to give a lengthy discussion, the "bean counters" would undoubtedly count the hairs and then be irritated (or happy) that the numbers didn't match what I'd promised. Nonsense.

What difference does it make, and why would I spend time literally "counting hairs?" Sometimes we get amazing results with the first clearance ... other times only so-so. In the long-run, if they keep to the program they will achieve the desired results within the given time (money) estimate.

I will say that in more than 40-years of practice and full involvement in this field, this was the first time I've been called a liar. I am a lot of things ... but that's not one of them.

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#126656 - 05/15/18 04:04 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1816
Loc: London, UK
It's a pragmatic approach.

The problem is, for most of us, we will never encounter a local electrologist who can give any kind of estimate. Usually, because they themselves have no idea because they do not know which of their treated follicles have been destroyed.

Josefa's approach is a little different sometimes, we know. I think that's partly because of and reserved for clients that are travelling a long distance to see her and may only ever be able to come for the first clearance. Therefore they want to see the maximum results from that single clearance.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#126658 - 05/15/18 08:19 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Checking my files and I have only three local clients. Farthest away at the moment: Australia. Getting the maximum results doesn't depend on the distance the patient is traveling.

Five years ago my Norwegian client said he had done "nothing" to his hairs (as I had instructed). But when he got here, I could see he'd shaved about 4-weeks earlier ... and thus I was not able to get all the hairs the first "go." I couldn't very well send him home for a few more weeks?

Now the more important issue: YES all electrologists can give estimates. Their estimate should be ONLY based on the averages of their own work. For example, let's say I have a client from another country that wants back work (or any area). The correct questions for the new client is: "What is you average for this area?" Now, that's a question! Not: "How many hairs are in resting stage?"

If your therapist has been working, say, 10-years, she can look at her files and do a simple rendering of the figures. (Photos helps to establish a variance: more or less than the average.)

I outline this in my "Strategy" book and the point is that there ARE "Standards of Practice" ... the electrologist's standards ONLY!

Seana recommended the huge "Canadian ... Meharg ... textbook" and if you care to "count hairs" it's all in there: charts and all (I don't "buy" any of it). If any of you come up with a truly definitive answer, that will be lovely ... so far, I can't! But I CAN do averages. And, so can all of us!

And, that's the "Truff!"

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#126659 - 05/15/18 08:40 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Just for "shits and giggles" let me say that after this uncomfortable happenstance (as you might say "replete with accusations") it will be a cold day in Hell if I ever offer any actual estimates on-line.

Trying to navigate this mine-field only garners the ire of electrologists (hate mail) and on-line clients (name-calling). When I have real clients, then I will do a lengthy vetting ... for them, AND for me. But this asinine punishment, from attempting to help, no longer works for me (and is probably why few electrologists dare-the-drama of Hairtell, et. al.)

"Where have all the elctrologists gone?" Well, not here anyway.

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#126660 - 05/15/18 10:16 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
I've been busily recruiting new ones. Had you not noticed?
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126661 - 05/15/18 11:28 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
Electrologists "leaving" hairtell because of pressure over their opinions from either consumers,or other electrologists. Gee, I wouldnt know anything about that smile ( tongue firmly planted in cheek in case the sarcasm isnt properly conveyed) .

People "running off" because they got butthurt over having those opinions challenged.(insert sarcasm) I wouldnt know anything about that either because text always communicates inflection.
.Sure is hard to stand up for ones opinions around here isnt it?

Then there's idiots like me and you Michael. And Josepha, and Dee, and Beate, and Dimi , heck I've seen Christine OConnell post recently. Like moths to a flame, we keep coming back. Why is that?
Because hairtell, and the interaction between consumer and electrologist that we all LOVE to hate.....gets under your skin. You cant help yourself. You Michael see a big juicy well thought out question, and really, you cant help yourself. You jump in there.
I dont think we've seen the last of zapmyface either. I'll be very disappointed if that's the case.
But we dont get to ask the questiions, or censor what is asked. zapmyface has the questions he has, because that's how his mind works. It doesnt matter that you "dont like the questions" or feel that to answer them is beneath you, he still has those questions, the "how comes" .
Long ago I gave you a label. I think you earned it with zapmyface. His questions werent "wrong" and to tell him that he would never be a client of yours, I think was a little hurtful. Actually I think he kind of idolized your opinions and interactions, and I dont think you were fair with him. I think a better wayto handle questions you dont want to answer is to just not answer them, then to do whats happened here.

But what do I know.I'm just an amatuer!

Seana




Edited by Iluv2zap (05/15/18 11:57 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126662 - 05/15/18 12:15 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Seana ... YEAH!

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#126665 - 05/15/18 01:22 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Scurvy Offline
Contributor

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 15
I'm assuming there's some aspect of you all wanting to do the right thing by your profession. Within the hair removal industry more broadly, and more specifically within electrolysis, there is so much ignorance and misinformation and never enough people to dispel all of it.

I (maybe wrongly?) assume that's why Michael used to receive hate mail from other electrologists and clients of other electrologists -- ignorance and misinformation. As a consumer, who one day has hopes of doing electrology, I have heard from electrologists and other consumers who still believe that hairs must be in the right growth stage to be treated, that each hair must be treated several times, and that galvanic is the only "true" electrolysis that can deliver results.

And that's just the beginning.

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#126666 - 05/15/18 02:46 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3361
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Scurvy .... HELL YES!

Now, think about this ... me "doing this" for 43-years and getting the same "bazunka." Still coming from schools and manufactures too. But as Seana has said, I need to just "suck it up" and take a vacation; a long one. Okay, not the exact works but the good meaning of it.

I now average three emails per day from clients with "marks" from electrolysis. I don't know what to do or say any more. Maybe I'm just too damned old ... probably so. I'm already in telogen ... with exogen close at hand.

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#126668 - 05/15/18 04:12 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By NARMA2018


I hope she can make an appearance and discuss further the results for us ...



Those results have surprised me as much as others. As with any other case of "untouched" hair, I was able to predict a high percentage of elimination, but honestly, not to this degree.

If I had been asked for an estimate regarding the number of necessary clearances, my response would have been similar to that of some of my colleagues. 3 clearings with an interval of 3 or 4 months. It is obvious that we can all make mistakes, but it is always wiser to offer a realistic perspective than to be too optimistic and disappoint the expectations.

What happened here? frankly, I do not know. If there is no risk of overtreatment, I always try to leave as few untreated hairs as possible. With such a high density of hair present and such deep roots, I tend to be very cautious with my settings, but who knows, maybe the treatment affected adjacent follicles?

According to Hinkel himself, this is plausible. Of course, in his book he refers to another modality, the Blend. However, this work was done with only HF (flash).
So ... what is the explanation?

The key is at the point of this thread. 1) Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. 2) A single clearance will achieve a certain percentage of permanent reduction that will depend on the percentage of hairs present and the skill of the operator.

Last but not least, I never heard from this client again until I saw the "after" picture. There was never a single message indicating concern about inflammation, redness, crusting, hyperpigmentation, etc. Nothing!. And believe me, I would bet my life that there must have been a lot of all these side effects.

For that, a big THANK YOU!

Note: The treated area was only toes.


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#126669 - 05/15/18 05:36 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Josefa M. Reina]
NARMA2018 Offline
Contributor

Registered: 05/09/18
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By Josefa M. Reina
Originally Posted By NARMA2018


I hope she can make an appearance and discuss further the results for us ...



Those results have surprised me as much as others. As with any other case of "untouched" hair, I was able to predict a high percentage of elimination, but honestly, not to this degree.

If I had been asked for an estimate regarding the number of necessary clearances, my response would have been similar to that of some of my colleagues. 3 clearings with an interval of 3 or 4 months. It is obvious that we can all make mistakes, but it is always wiser to offer a realistic perspective than to be too optimistic and disappoint the expectations.

What happened here? frankly, I do not know. If there is no risk of overtreatment, I always try to leave as few untreated hairs as possible. With such a high density of hair present and such deep roots, I tend to be very cautious with my settings, but who knows, maybe the treatment affected adjacent follicles?

According to Hinkel himself, this is plausible. Of course, in his book he refers to another modality, the Blend. However, this work was done with only HF (flash).
So ... what is the explanation?

The key is at the point of this thread. 1) Thermolysis can be as effective as galvanic or blend. 2) A single clearance will achieve a certain percentage of permanent reduction that will depend on the percentage of hairs present and the skill of the operator.

Last but not least, I never heard from this client again until I saw the "after" picture. There was never a single message indicating concern about inflammation, redness, crusting, hyperpigmentation, etc. Nothing!. And believe me, I would bet my life that there must have been a lot of all these side effects.

For that, a big THANK YOU!

Note: The treated area was only toes.



Great evaluation and backed up with research and experience, a humble opinion worth having and sharing. Thank you Josie for both the excellent treatment and knowledge.

This area developed small blisters, some hyperpigmentation which resided after a month and a half. Swelling was very minimal next to zero, apparantly unusually.

After two months they looked completely normal without side effects, the skin healed quite fast without use of creams etc. This area is generally hidden so not overly concerned with side effects, a friend of mine whom had electrolysis from Josefa showcased his scabbing/hyperpigmentation to me which all disappeared, so I was confident in my treatment/electrologist.

For those considering electrolysis this may be a great reminder to go on referrals in the first instance as opposed to photos etc if you're fortunate enough to know someone who has/is getting good results as you can follow their treatment results/temporary side effects.

This, in my opinion is a better way to inform yourself and allay fears than talking to your electrologist as Michael mentioned, nothing beats a live stream.

This forum is how my friend came across Josefa in the first place. I hope this thread can help someone as a pleased client and testimony to Josefas work.

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#126743 - 05/23/18 11:18 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 171
I hate when people misinterpret what I'm saying so I'll just come back for a sec to be very clear.

To Seana:

I'm ''butthurt'' because I'm pointing out flaws between people's opinion or facts (not just this thread) and I'm the one suffering the consequences for it. If anything it's others that feel offended in my pursuit of ''the truth'', not me.

To Michael:

First of all I never called you a liar, where did you read that exactly? I never attacked you or your ''estimates'', at least that's not how I see it.

I was under the impression that the ''% of hidden hairs'' was something established already on a normal body (or parts of the body). Look, when you said that there was 40 to 50% of hairs present in the pic, I assumed it was the norm on toes, and since it made no sense how most of the hairs were gone after only 1 clearance according to everyone's statements, I had to call it out, that's it!

If this was simply an ''estimate'' on your part, I was the one who misinterpreted the whole thing. But either way, what's wrong in calling out a clearly wrong estimate or an established fact? Since you were a little rude, allow me to return the favour: Did your ego get in the way? Going off on me like that and barring me from your practice really wasn't necessary.



To everyone else:

It's not that I don't believe in Josefa's work, but COMPARED to some other treatments I've heard about, or experienced myself, it seems absurd how she can be this fast with this little regrowth. I'm GLAD if this is truly the case, but you can see why one would at least have some reservations (or should I say jealousy) over it. I honestly just wanted to understand why or how there was such a huge difference between some electrologists (or even some treatments with the same electrologist since Josefa herself was surprised at the results), that's it!

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#126744 - 05/24/18 01:03 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: zapmyface]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
Originally Posted By zapmyface


To Seana:

I'm ''butthurt'' because I'm pointing out flaws between people's opinion or facts (not just this thread) and I'm the one suffering the consequences for it. If anything it's others that feel offended in my pursuit of ''the truth'', not me.


I'm glad you came back around, regardless.

Having you around it's a bit like the kid who read the coles notes on debate, joining the debate team.I know you are just
trying to work your brain around the details,but this is what I'm talking about when I say the "art" of electrolysis.
Nearly everything we discuss, is un-measureable.It's all subjective opinion for the most part.
Because As Josepha points out, even she can have better or worse results.
It truly is art in it's finest form, and Josepha is an old master.That's the "how come" .And yes, she has hadplenty of people call her a liar, (or a lot worse) but the results, speak to themselves.
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126768 - 05/26/18 08:12 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 60
My dear Seana, my skin has become quite thick lately. There are those who call it "survival instinct".

I have been accused of so many things: lying in my "before & after" cases; press and blackmail clients in exchange for permission to use their photos; lack of professionalism and transparency; and a very funny that begins to become a habit, use false identities to promote my services in Hairtell, WOW!!!... not to mention others that at this moment I can not remember.

Zapmyface, let me tell you what is for me utterly absurd in this "charming" profession. What is really absurd is that a professional with 20, 30, or 40 years of career is not able to foresee and guarantee the results of her/his own work with an almost mathematical precision when conditions permit. Conditions that have been discussed many times here, but that I can repeat one more time: a) Start the treatments with a maximum of hairs present on the surface of the skin, b) Carry out precise insertions, and c) Zero traction for absolutely every one of the hairs.


In recent years, I have had the opportunity to see for myself the results of several of my colleagues, and while I could see some reduction in most of them (some more than others), I only worked in one case where the estimates from a previous practitioner coincided exactly with the time that I needed to make the second clearing. Guess who?

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#126769 - 05/26/18 09:07 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1375
ohhhhh...is there a prize for guessing correctly? I could use an all expenses paid trip to Malaga to have my neck cleared! I'm going to guess the previous practioner has the initials MB.

Seana has one of the biggest backs around.I Carry a lot of weight around on it and I've become everyones favourite whipping girl. I think this is normal? I just dont know anymore.


Edited by Iluv2zap (05/26/18 09:25 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126775 - 05/26/18 03:09 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
Josefa M. Reina Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 60
Bingo Seana! I'm sure there are more fun prizes, but of course, I would be happy to meet you personally.

As for the lashes on your back, try to avoid them as much as possible. The first will come without waiting for them, but with practice, one becomes an agile contortionist. wink

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