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#126810 - 06/02/18 03:56 AM Which factors affect skin side effects?
Scurvy Offline
Contributor

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 28
Hey everyone.

After having received electrolysis from two different electrologists with two different machines, the condition of my skin is completely different depending on who I see.

The first has a rather new machine with more capabilities. She uses blend, activates the current for maybe 3 seconds, very minimal pain, and she seems to treat more slowly. After treatment, my skin is red as though I've been badly sunburnt, but it subsides within less than a day and I look as though my skin hasn't even been touched.

The second has a rather old machine, probably over 20 years old. She uses blend, activates the current for around 1 to 2 seconds, and the pain is noticeably higher, and she seems to treat more quickly and is very thorough. After treatment, my skin is lumpy and pink, and noticeably dry and red (like razor burn) for roughly four or five days afterwards.

I'm curious what would cause a difference in the side effects. Is the machine relevant, the settings, both or none?

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#126811 - 06/02/18 04:36 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
adrien_sanchiz Offline

Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 320
Loc: France, Spain
This is a very interesting question. Can two different machine can induce different skin reaction from electrolysis treatment?

Does a “old machine” is more agressive for the skin ? Does slow blend is better for the skin than quick blend ?

Let see what the pros think
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#126814 - 06/02/18 08:52 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Too many factors go into this to make a determination. The BIG one is operator. Were this one operator with two closely related machines (same modality), then a better comparison could be made.

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#126816 - 06/02/18 09:18 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
melb_aussie Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 91
Loc: Upwey, VIC Australia
Totally agree with Mike. Comparison should b best performed by the same operator.
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#126817 - 06/02/18 10:38 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Roselake21 Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 03/02/17
Posts: 52
The following test would be very interesting:

Treat an area with the same type/hair density in the arm for exemple, with two differents machine with the same settings and same needle. I would be very curious to see that.

One of the difficulties that can happen is the calibrations of the machine’s settings. It can distort the result of the test.

What do you think ?

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#126818 - 06/02/18 11:29 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
adrien_sanchiz Offline

Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/13
Posts: 320
Loc: France, Spain
This is a very good idea Roselake !
_________________________
Licensed electrologist and esthetician.
http://adrien-sanchiz-electrolysis.blogspot.fr/

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#126819 - 06/02/18 12:20 PM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
dimi Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 128
Loc: Montreal, Canada
In engineering field there are rules to how to perform a test to see the effect of different parameters in one system.

1. Establish initial conditions for each test which will be constant for each test (if applicable).
2. Make a list with all possible parameters which could affect the outcome of the test, in this case the skin side effects.This is PUT(Parameters under test).
3. Make first test with the established parameters and record the results.
4.Change ONLY ONE parameter from PUT, make a test and record the results.
5. Continue the tests while all PUT are tested.

Compare the result and make conclusion.

So what are initial conditions and what are the PUT? What do you think?

Dimi

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#126822 - 06/03/18 01:54 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Scurvy Offline
Contributor

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 28
Thank you all for your input.

Considering your responses, I suppose my question then becomes more related to the capability of older or non-computerised epilators in simultaneously achieving permanent hair removal and also causing a very minimal amount of disruption to surrounding skin at the surface.

I've been under the impression that older epilators are fine as new ones are, but I heard about this idea of "hot current" or current that rises up the follicle more quickly potentially causing more skin disruption. All of this is supposedly dependent upon the epilator.

I have to say I'm not convinced this explanation is scientific (wouldn't all RF be "hot current"?), but I'm happy to learn more if it's legitimate. I'm trying to gather as much information so I can buy a machine, and especially a second-hand machine to use for practice. At the moment, Sterex Blend unit is the most available, so I'm curious about the effect that different epilators and different brands have on how the skin is effected from a treatment. Or as you've said, it might likely be an issue of operator skill.

Thanks again, everyone.

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#126825 - 06/03/18 07:18 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Michael Bono]
Josefa M. Reina Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 74
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Too many factors go into this to make a determination. The BIG one is operator. Were this one operator with two closely related machines (same modality), then a better comparison could be made.


When will we understand that this is the only determining factor in the final result?
The skin reaction, as well as the % kill rate only depends on the operator!

In 38 years of work I have trained a few people, and although all have been taught to do more or less the same, each one has different results. Electrolysis is like learning to write. The whole class will learn to write, but each one will have their own calligraphy.

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#126829 - 06/03/18 08:17 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Jossie, yes! The (near) fatal flaw of electrology is one factor: operator. Sometimes "results" are so different that you wonder if this is really ONE profession.

Overwhelmingly, I have seen two main concerns of client/posters: 1) How do I determine if I'm getting the best results or seeing the best electrologist? 2) What do all these post-treatment marks mean?

Clients ask the wrong questions ... and focus on the wrong issues. Maybe, with more media on client concerns this could be improved. But I doubt it? Clients have an inherent tendency to ask the same questions, regardless of the thousands of times the same questions have been answered.

Finally, I'm tired of shouting at the abyss because the abyss is starting to shout back!

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#126831 - 06/03/18 09:56 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Scurvy Offline
Contributor

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 28
I should clarify I'm happy with both my electrologists and intend to continue seeing both of them. Any skin reactions, even ones that appear aggressive, are still temporary, so I'm content. They're both leading me to the same end point, which is permanent hair removal.

The discussion I was hoping to start was how machines, settings, needles, and all the other variables work to influence a different result. At the end of the day, it all comes back to the operator making decisions about each variable for each client.

On top of that, I'm doing as much research as possible, learning new things constantly from picking my electrologists' brains, reading and watching videos. Sometimes, new information I come across will contradict old information. It's difficult to judge which information takes precedence then, especially when training in my country is very poor, and any good opportunities are few and far between.

My main concern is being well equipped with good information before I spend a lot of money (for me) on a second-hand machine, learning resources, ongoing costs of learning and informal training.

So I hope my communication isn't being received as nitpicking client worries or shouting back, I'm honestly just curious to see what professionals and DIYers here think.

Thank you again for your thoughts.


Edited by Scurvy (06/03/18 09:57 AM)

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#127420 - 08/10/18 05:44 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
TSTimmi Offline
Contributor

Registered: 08/04/18
Posts: 10
Hi Michael,
With all due respect from a newbie to a virtual hairtell guru, these statements leave me scratching my head.: "Overwhelmingly, I have seen two main concerns of client/posters: 1) How do I determine if I'm getting the best results or seeing the best electrologist? 2) What do all these post-treatment marks mean?

Clients ask the wrong questions...and focus on the wrong issues."
Aren't those predictable, understandable and exactly the right questions to be asking?
And I get that you're getting tired of answering when there is a searchable data base within hairtell.com and more broadly within the www.

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#127421 - 08/10/18 10:39 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I don't understand the "due respect," but yes, of course, these are the questions that patients ask. I've been answering these concerns for decades. I think that's what my videos are ALL ABOUT? PIH, angiogeneses, pebbling, dimpling, myofibroblasts, normal reactions, etc. So, where have I gone wrong?

As far as "finding the right electrologist?" The questions usually focus on the wrong areas, e.g., what equipment (or modality) is being used. Patients normally miss the point. The point is missed, because electrologists have given out this information as being critical to a successful treatment. It's not.

Post-treatment marks are usually centered around "what to put on the skin to speed the healing." Again, missing the point.

Often times, the professional electrologists themselves lead patients into focusing on the wrong issues.

For example, right now, I have gotten six (so far) emails from a patient that is confused about "HF frequency." She's afraid that the 27 megahertz unit will cause scars (over the 13.56 megahertz unit) because the 27 mhz unit produces "more strength." I cannot convince her otherwise, because some "lovely" out there has given her incorrect information.

Maybe watch some of my videos before the criticism?


Edited by Michael Bono (08/10/18 10:41 AM)

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#127422 - 08/10/18 11:44 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
A+ response.
After only a few years, 'm already tired of such questions, and more so because even when we do take the time to explain the facts, we generally find that the client STILL doesn't get it, and ignore our advice completely, as in the case of Michael's client. I know for my part, I've stopped responding to a LOT of the repetitive questions. Unfortunately, often that means no one responds at all.

It comes down to this, you can only hold the clients hand aand guide them so far, and after that it's time to either piss or get off the pot.


Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (08/10/18 11:45 AM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#127423 - 08/10/18 11:50 AM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Goodie ... Seana!

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#127424 - 08/10/18 02:19 PM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: Scurvy]
TheFlyingProbe Online
Major Contributor

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 103
I call these clients "trapper's." With their barrage of wrong questions (machines, modalities, A vs. B, etc) they attempt to trap the electrologist by looking for anything they consider wrong. An informed client is a good thing. Curiosity seekers and know-it-alls have the potential to destroy the client/practitioner relationship and frequently it ends in a very bad way.


Edited by TheFlyingProbe (08/10/18 02:23 PM)

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#127432 - 08/11/18 12:11 PM Re: Which factors affect skin side effects? [Re: TSTimmi]
Deedra Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 08/02/18
Posts: 9711
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By TSTimmi
Hi Michael,
With all due respect from a newbie to a virtual hairtell guru, these statements leave me scratching my head.: "Overwhelmingly, I have seen two main concerns of client/posters: 1) How do I determine if I'm getting the best results or seeing the best electrologist? 2) What do all these post-treatment marks mean?

Clients ask the wrong questions...and focus on the wrong issues."
Aren't those predictable, understandable and exactly the right questions to be asking?
And I get that you're getting tired of answering when there is a searchable data base within hairtell.com and more broadly within the www.


There are certain cultures that are taught to ask questions, question everything (sometimes ten times, even though they have been given the same answer 9 times in a row). Details, details, details!! I can almost figure a client out in five minutes of talking to them to know what I'm in for!

I, too, get exhausted from such clients questioning me in person or by text. I allowed one client to "pester" me for three months, even after a thorough consult. If one would read ALL the text msgs., one might have a whole afternoon of giggles. It became both sad and funny. You have to work harder for these unique clients. They are very intelligent and I have concluded that they were brought up to ask a lot of questions and never back down. You insult them if you don't stay patient and answer their questions, but you gain their respect if you honor their questions, patiently. So, I am trying to be respectful of ones culture and quest for knowledge. That's how I look at it.

If I had to go through this for every client, I would start charging for my time. It doesn't happen a lot, so I suck it up.

As I age, I might get crankier and meaner about such encounters. The great thing is, I REALLY like these clients after the education process ends and we become new best friends.
_________________________
Dee Fahey RN CT LLC

Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis and the State Nursing Board of Ohio

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