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#126939 - 06/12/18 09:32 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Iluv2zap]
deenglow Offline
Contributor

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 12
I suppose you are right, worst case scenario being another unanswered email in a large pile of unanswered emails!

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#126965 - 06/15/18 09:31 AM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Deenglow is trying to get the last word... Over my hairy dead body! Lol. I had a few days to think about all of what has been discussed in this thread, and, you guessed it, something is still itching my brain. Several factors of effectiveness have already been explored, however I’d like to delve into the most important one. I was wondering if practitioner’s skill, or the ‘’art’’ of electro, could be explained in a more... practical term. Oh no, not this again! Shut him up already! BOOOOOO! Bear with me for a sec before throwing your tomatoes, lol!

What makes the difference between a close to 100% kill rate (as shown several times on this forum by Josefa) versus a, well, pretty low one… I can’t talk for everyone, but 3-15% is what I’ve personally experienced in my relatively long term tests/treatments. So how can this be? Forgive the simplicity, but isn’t every electrologist doing the same thing, i.e. putting a needle in a hole and zapping. Off the top of my head, the only differing factors I can think of are the depth, strong-enough current (to get the hair to release without plucking, otherwise going back a second time), and maybe angle. Everything else seems rather trivial compared to this, no?

Let's take my weekly treatments over 8 months on an area of my face (with the same operator) as an example. Multiple pulses (close together, in less than a second) were used throughout my treatments. I would assume this solves the issue of different depths! Sometimes, another pass was needed to remove the hair without plucking it. I'd assume that removes suspicions about not using adequate current/settings since it was relatively rare, right? I guess that also removes doubts that she was only trying to clear the area fast, and not try to kill every single hair, as some people pointed out in this thread already.

So how come is there still such a big difference in terms of effectiveness with what seems to be the norm on this forum (few clearances and TTT-wise; let’s not even talk about Josefa’s miraculous posts). Could the multiple pulses (3!) still not be effectively targeting the right area(s)? Could the angle be the secret ingredient (applying pressure to the follicle walls seems to be the only thing I can think of)? Not too sure what else there could be...

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#126966 - 06/15/18 12:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'm not going to toss any tomatoes; I'll just make a couple comments/observations.

First off, I have a strong client policy: clients must NOT post "heroic" photos of my work. I won't continue with them if they do, because they usually get into some "contest" with which they know nothing about. If B&A photos are posted, I'll do it myself (with consent) and offer up the exact TTT and evidence. If clients hype my work, and/or present hyperbole, it gets people up-in-arms or pissed-off (electrologists). Bad Ju-Ju! (I differ from Josefa on that point.)

My favorite clients just shut-up, get the work done and leave happy ... nothing to brag about please! I don't need the "ahgeda" (NY Italian for grief.)

Having said that, indeed the differences clients get is astronomical. I spoke some time ago about a local electrologist who took 127 hours on a chin (beard) with almost no results. (A whole beard should be less than 100 hours.) The electrologist went to the Hinkel School (my school) and uses the same machine I use. What the hell is wrong? I think you can figure that out.

As to all the various variables? Actually, if a REAL scientific study were ever conducted, we would discover that the variables are pretty small: there would emerge one technique to beat them all. Problem is, it will never happen. Thus, the client is left with the terrible task of trying to figure this out themselves. And this site will continue on with legitimate head-scratching, and half-baked recriminations. It's not worth it because nothing will come of it!

Tomatoes please!

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#126967 - 06/15/18 12:10 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
sigh, he's begging for it and I cant! Housing ripped up my garden this year to run new gas lines......
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126968 - 06/15/18 01:36 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Originally Posted By Michael Bono
Having said that, indeed the differences clients get is astronomical. I spoke some time ago about a local electrologist who took 127 hours on a chin (beard) with almost no results. (A whole beard should be less than 100 hours.) The electrologist went to the Hinkel School (my school) and uses the same machine I use. What the hell is wrong? I think you can figure that out.


My damn point exactly, I CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT! I tried to present variables that are all related to the zapping itself aka electrologist ''skill'', nothing to do about machines or methods!

Do you consider the variables I talked about small? Are there more important ones? Honestly, I don't think they're that small, otherwise people wouldn't have such different results! I really wouldn't push this further if TTT was in about the same range for everyone, but it's not so here I am.

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#126969 - 06/15/18 02:00 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Iluv2zap Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 1529
Some of the variables that contribute to their skill or kill rate include insertion accuracy, choice of probe and modality. The training they recieved and what retraining they have undergone. And most of all what Josepha said, their desire to destroy every single hair. If you dont treat certain hairs because you dont like telogen or catogen or grey hairs or whatever, well if you never try, you will definitely never succeed in killing them. Treatment of the hair beforehand ( ie not shaving it) makes a big difference to growth cycles.

It's not that your "clues" and questions are unimportant, but they are one small part of the bigger picture. All of these things and more contribute to what you call art or skill.

Seana


Edited by Iluv2zap (06/15/18 02:04 PM)
_________________________
Seana Richmond
Certified Electrologist.
Electrolysis By Seana
http://electrolysisbyseana.com

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#126970 - 06/15/18 02:33 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
By insertion accuracy, do you mean the depth at which the zap is made? Doesn't the multiple pulse technique employed by my electrologist (and I'm sure many others) greatly improve that accuracy?

She also treated every single hair during our sessions regardless of phases, and zaps it again when it rarely pulls when tweezed.

She seems to be doing everything right, yet I can't figure out why TTT will take at the very least 2x what is repeatedly discussed here (not even talking about Josefa's miracle posts, just generally speaking). I can't help but wonder... how, why? Really, what else is there?!

The choice of probe seems trivial, at least to me, I'd be extremely pissed (actually enraged) if that was the factor that greatly increases my TTT...

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#126972 - 06/15/18 05:17 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: Michael Bono]
Josefa M. Reina Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 74
Time to clarify certain facts:

1) Indeed, the time used to clear the 10 toes was not 60 minutes, but 72 minutes exactly. The confusion is probably due to the fact that I charged for an hour, rounding in favor of the client as I always do.

2) The timer starts with the first pedal pressure, that is, those 72 minutes of the session correspond exclusively to the time used in the electrolysis process, not in the infiltration of anesthesia or other previous steps.

"Clients who present hyperbole in order to highlight my work ...".
It sounds like a euphemism to me. The correct term would be:
"Josefa's client is LYING and she is his ACCOMPLICE". It's okay.

The difference between you and me Michael, is that I would never question a direct testimony by any of your clients knowing that you are present in the conversation, and knowing full well that professionally you would clarify if such lies had taken place.


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#126973 - 06/15/18 07:31 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3490
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Oh dear, I got my tit in the wringer ...
Not what I meant ... mama mia!

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#126974 - 06/15/18 09:27 PM Re: Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached [Re: NARMA2018]
zapmyface Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 02/18/18
Posts: 218
Mission accomplished! Fight between yourselves, muhahahaha!



All jokes aside, I think Michael's point was more about clients hyping the work and not about devaluating yours. I'd also like to clarify that I'm very aware of the ''hype'', if anything I always diminish it's effect IN MY MIND to compensate. Sadly even accounting that, it still doesn't make sense to me how there is such a huge gap between operators. I think I've presented valid points trying to figure out why (in my last 2 messages) accounting for everyone's answers that have already been given in this thread. It would be a shame to end this now, though, being so close to what feels like a ''final answer''!

The ball is in your camp (all of you), I'm just the challenging... messenger! Waiting for people to answer (if they want to) so I can refute and compromise to get closer to a satisfying answer.


Edited by zapmyface (06/15/18 09:34 PM)

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