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#14967 - 09/30/03 12:26 PM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
redhead Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 301
This is a very ineresting page Andrea and I guess yb was correct in a way. Hairs do return, only they are minature versions of what they once were. While I don't consider myself an ideal candidate, these are the results I got from my laser treatmnets five years ago. The thick coarse hair on my arms has been permanently turned into beautiful, golden fine short hairs which is O.K. with me. I can see how this would not be so great for a womans face and furthermore I was dissapointed initially because I was led to believe that the results would be smooth skin. I tried electrology on my chest and back and found it to be impossible to continue after a while, but the results I saw after 5 full treatmentswere actaul loss of hair with the remaining hairs just as long and coarse as the original. Laser was great for making my hairs small and fine, but electrology removed the hair entirely but was prohibitive in terms of pain, trauma, time and money. I stopped trying until I read RJC2001's posts about the Aurora in this Forum, and am now feeling hopeful again based on my experiences so far. An area on my stomach that was previously "reduced" with laser showed remarkable reaction to the patch test I got four months ago. So far the hair that has grown back is super tiny and for the first time I can see actual bald areas like the kind I got from electrolysis. My full beard, which was virgin, will see the effects of the shedding from the second treatment some time this week. WE'll see!

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#14968 - 09/30/03 01:39 PM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
bebba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 66
Loc: Canada
Good Luck Redhead! I am having laser treatments on my face presently and believe me, any "reduction" is welcome! I believe I will have to finish up atleast 6 treatments on my face to be totally happy. I would like to expand from my upper lip,chin and neck to do my cheeks and sideburns. I hope I get a dramatic reduction and if the hairs grow back to a blond light peach fuzz, well it's better than what I have now. I am considering electrolysis for stubborn areas after all laser treatments are finished. [Cool]
bebba

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#14969 - 09/30/03 06:28 PM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
redhead Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 301
I like your style Bebba. I think a lot of us are here for the same 2 reasons. 1. Electrolysis on it's own is not a humane solution to most major hair problems, and 2. that we have been led to believe that lasers can do things they can't. Starting In 1997 I had about 7 treatments on my arms with the early lasers (Epilaser,Alexandrite, and Diode) and I am calling the reduction that I see today,5 or 6 years later, permanent. Imagine a circle,lying flat, filled with ten reddish-brown popsicle sticks. Now imagine if those popsicle sticks were replaced with blonde colored matchsticks. This is hardly "no results or waxing", but it is not hairless smooth skin like I was told I'd get. While I am not a great candidate for laser with red hair, and lasers have probably advanced in 6 years, I am glad to hear that you are being realistic about the role electrology will have to play if you want truly smooth skin, and I think that your posts are wonderful.

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#14970 - 10/01/03 07:24 AM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
redhead Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 301
Andrea, I looked at the page you presented about FDA studies again and noticed that the data is about 6 years old. It makes me wonder if todays lasers and IPL's might be shortchanged by this study?

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#14971 - 10/01/03 12:17 AM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
James W. Walker VII Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8055
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...
If it were true that the "new" lasers and IPL's are shortchanged as you say, it is because the companies that make them are spending more money on advertising than they are on studies to submit to the FDA. At $50,000 to $250,000 per unit, plus royalties on every click of the machine, they surely have the money to pay some college to do a credible double blind study.

You said
quote:
This is hardly "no results or waxing", but it is not hairless smooth skin like I was told I'd get.
and that is the real problem I have with laser operators. Many of them (no doubt under pressure from $3,000 a month payments on their machine) promise the moon and the stars to get someone to sign on for a course of treatment. Meanwhile it is known that although one MIGHT look bare and smooth for a short time, in a relatively short time one gets either the result you got, or full regrowth with the addition of white, or clear hairs because the hair is no longer producing pigment, or stimulation of more hair growth. Some people get burned as well, but that is not essential to this point. I am only saying that I don't like the overpromise side.

You may have taken my posts on the POSSIBLE negative side effects to mean that I believe that everyone who undertakes laser treatment WILL have some horrible disfiguring side effect. That is not what I mean to say. I can't speak for Harvey, or FINO, and I am sure they agree on this point (speaking of credibility, if you continue to refer to the man as GINO FIOR when you know perfectly well his name is Fino Gior, you risk loosing what ever credibility you may have. You may even come of as just a LaserBlazer from Kitty's site cloaked for easy access) However, we have no definitive word on that either at the moment, and it has taken decades to find these kinds of answers to more than one question about a procedure thought to be perfectly safe. I am sure you can come up with one off the top of your head right now. Come on, name something we were all told was perfectly safe, and a modern day miracle savior only to then be told that it is certain death awaiting us when it is too late for a generation of people who flocked to it's door.

[ September 30, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: James W. Walker VII, CPE ]

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#14972 - 10/01/03 12:27 AM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
yb Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 399
Loc: New York, NY
redhead,
I was referring to my personal experience with lasers in addition to the scintific studies. I am talking about when a case of 'too big' side burns was much worse after one-two treatments, and after 1 - 2 more started taking the shape of a male beard. The hair is where ever an adult male would have it and it is much denser than before. You can't blame it on other circumstances because it happened very quickly and it was worse with each treatment. There's more.

As far as the age of the studies goes, I don't think that the laser techs jump on a new machine when it comes out ditching their outdated equipment of two yrs which they're still paying off. Also, scroll down to my other post in this forum named 'Laser counterproductive!' for a reference to a NEW STUDY which is a couple of months old. It does not suggest that the permanence factor of lasers has changed, only that new and IMPORTANT side effects were discovered.

It does not mean that you or someone else will for sure see such side effects. It only suggests that such things are possible and common. I am a live example of this. Before this study came out my dermotologist, laser tech, electrologist and friends were laughing in disbelief. So here it is.

As far as your experiences with lasers go, you're only witnessing a short period. It is true that if hair has not shown up during the growth cycle, then it's a good sign. But you are not dealing with normal hair, the hair follicles were affected by laser and do not necessary follow the same growth cycle. Regroth after laser can start or continue many years after treatment. To prove the point, why do they measure regrowth years after treatment if the growth cycle is within 12 months for most hair? Simple, because the growth cycle was disrupted by the laser. In addition all these studies measuring regrowth use data of only a couple of years. NO ONE really knows what will the effect be some years down the line. No one can for sure use the word 'permanent', as no one has seen it, only the word 'long term' if a few years is long term in your opinion.

Not so with electrolysis. It's effects have been witnessed over a hundred years.

A note to ppl who are considering to do laser on their face and then finish up the job with electrolysis. If you can pluck it in 1 hr, you can permanently remove it in about 2 hrs with electrolysis. If you use laser, your treated follicles may be regrowing hair for many years to come, and all these years you will not be done with your electrologist. You may be only stretching the fun for yourself. Even though laser can give you your first clearance faster, you may be better off stranded in an electrologist's chair for a few hours in the beginning and then in some time forget what their face looks like, rather than making hair removal tech a part of your family and your budget for the rest of your life. It's not such a good feeling. Excuse me for this quote, but Hitler was quoted before he attacked the USSR in 1941 saying that "A horrible end is better than horror without an end". It has to do with history, but the point is that it is better to invest more now for something safe and proven than to be the next victim of something that is proven not to work the way you need.

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#14973 - 10/01/03 01:26 AM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
redhead Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 301
I'm sorry to hear about your horrible experience, but After reading just about every post in this forum (a forum which is full of casualties of both laser and electrology), I haven't heard other people say they have had laser stimulate a dramatic growth spurt of hair that wasn't there before. I am not saying your case is unique, but the fact that you call this reaction common, makes me question your overall ability to speak of laser in a rational way.Just because you are outraged by your own experience, doesn't mean I have to believe your theories. Your own electrologists' website makes mention of the fact that there are many studies indicating that electrolysis causes stimulation of surrounding dormant hair follicles, but that there is no proof. Studies are not proof, they're STUDIES! Some of us don't feel like waiting 150 years to try other methods of hair removal besides electrology. Everthing in your medicine cabinit has potential horrible side effects that are possible. Possible is pretty much the opposite of common. I find the notion laughable that the hair I had treated 5 or six years ago is a time bomb waiting to go off turning me into a hairy ape. But since laser hasn't been around for 150 years, I guess I can't be sure. Laser AND electrology both have POSSIBLE side effects.

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#14974 - 10/01/03 05:59 AM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
redhead Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 301
By the way, james I honestly am so stupid that I was mixing up FINO GIORS' name, and meant no disrespect and wont do it again. I guess I know a lot of Gino's, and had a little Dislexia. SORRY FINO! As to your insinuation that I am a spy or a plant... you give me way to much credit. I'm just a desperate consumer that is equally disgusted by unscrupulous people in the laser industry as well as the elctrology community. I'm shocked that my forcing you to qualify some of your inflamatory statements leads you to a tactic like questioning my Patriotism. Next you'll be calling me a snitch. If there was a laser tech posting in the same fasion as you, I would be questioning his tactics too. I guess I'll just bow out to you James, and from now on I will just post the simple facts about my ongoing treatments. Please just promise me you won't acuse me of working for SYNERON. I hope the best for you "yb", and I hope you continue your good work as an Electrologist James.

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#14975 - 10/01/03 06:08 AM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
yb Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 399
Loc: New York, NY
If no one in this forum has mentioned that laser made their hair problem worse, it doesn't mean tha it is not so. You know, I noticed this effect of laser on me and I told the laser tech (who is also a board certified gyn, and spends the rest of his successful career taking out fetal humans, piece by piece from their mothers' womb). So him being a doctor and also reading up some stuff on lasers (which also had no mention of this) etc. made me follow their word and ignore what my eyes saw. Yes, I still came in for more laser treatments. It is only now, when I got my hands on this study did I realize that I was right all along, and that there are many more victims like me (hence the study). So even if some ppl in this forum also suffered similar side effects they would be more likely to blame it on their hair problem, rather than the treatment method.

Whatever I'm trying to say about the study is nothing more than is said in that article. The only thing I would supplement is my own experience which univocally supports it. I did not participate in this study and I am not making any theories.

Where did you see the website that suggests that electrolysis stimulates dormant follicles to grow hair? Would be very interested to read it. As far as I heard, electrolysis saw generations come and go with hair permanently removed with no complications after a lifetime. In addition, the effect of electrolysis isn't hard to predict because all it does is a small burn under the skin. If the follicle is dead, it will not regrow hair, and tiny burns don't pose much risk for years to come. A witness to this is not only the age of electrolysis, but also common medical knowledge about any burns. I'm not even mentioning the potential danger of lasers to cause skin problems like cancer (no one knows).

I'm not suggesting you wait 150 yrs to see where laser will lead our generation.
If there is no current proof that it is harmful, you can go ahead and take the risk. We take risks every day, and sometimes they are necessary. But what I am suggesting is that lasers are already proven not permanent and now also they show side effects which were not known before. One of my doctor friends told me recently that skin has a common denominator with the brain: no one really knows what's going on. It makes me to fearfully anticipate what will come next.

As far as I understand, the distinction between the words 'common' and 'possible' is in probability. The study suggests that there is a good number of such laser victims, even though most of them aren't even aware of what has really happened to them. I wouldn't call it a mere theory or faint probability, but I would call it an outright danger. From your post it seems that so far you've avoided this side effect of laser, so you're feeling more secure. However, if you have never had laser before, and if you were presented with the possibility of such a danger, I doubt that your decisions would be as brave. Mine would not. That's why I'm writing this to warn others of potential dangers awaiting them in the beauty salon. Because I suspect that laser techs will not be very forthcoming to share these findings with their clientelle.

P.S. I have heard of people requestring and receiving full refund of laser treatments on the basis that they are not permanent as advertized. I have also heard of reputable practitioners sending refund checks on their own to all their laser customers for this reason.

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#14976 - 10/01/03 08:07 AM Re: Urgent !! Female Beard, help!!!
redhead Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 301
yb, I feel I owe you my final comment on a post not directly linked to my own personal treatments. My prayer is that you experience the quickest and safest possible remedy to your situation. It sounds like as far as electrologists go, your choice of GINO FIOR's son is a good bet, and I look forward to reading about your progress and hopefully conclusion. Hang in there!

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