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#19217 - 09/17/04 11:23 AM Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Andrea Offline
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Posts: 4147
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This is a good overview from a young competitor's viewpoint.

Hair Removal
by Ryan Ward
http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/ward6.htm
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#19218 - 03/05/05 04:31 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Daredevil84 Offline


Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 3
Andrea and others,

I am also a bodybuilder. In his article, he directs a link to a product called hair no more, specifically here:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/hair/creme.html

Do you have any evidence on this product by any chance?

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#19219 - 03/05/05 04:03 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Andrea Offline
hairtell.com founder
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Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 4147
Loc: Los Angeles
Hair No More Is a "hair inhibitor" product to avoid. The claim in that ad that is can remove hair at the bulb is simply untrue for any topical preparation.

Most of these are a simple chemical depilatory like Nair. The products can only dissoolve hair above the skin's surface.

The "hair inhibitor" part is usually some herbal concoction. Since they never say what it is, there's no way to look it up and see if there is any scientific data that proves their claims.
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#19220 - 03/06/05 06:07 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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It smells good and does a good job as a moisturizer after shaving. But it does not inhibit hair growth. Not worth the money IMHO. Andrea is right.

Stick with a good razor. M3 Power for a blade. Braun Activator (or Sychro) for an electric. If you want something more permanent, try laser or electrolysis.

RJC2001

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#19221 - 03/26/05 06:28 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
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Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

It smells good and does a good job as a moisturizer after shaving. But it does not inhibit hair growth. Not worth the money IMHO. Andrea is right.

Stick with a good razor. M3 Power for a blade. Braun Activator (or Sychro) for an electric. If you want something more permanent, try laser or electrolysis.

RJC2001




My heart goes out to the poor fellow on the link. My hair is much less thick than his, thank goodness. I would recommend a high quality shave gel in the shower, not shampoo. Some People prefer to use woman's shave gel, as they feel it is designed for legs and other body parts. I use Neutrogena's women's shave gel, and am very pleased. I probably go through a couple of cans a month, a minimal expense compared with wax or laser. My favourite razor for my body is the woman's Venus, a variant on the Mach III. The blades are in fact interchangeable, though I prefer the women's blades, as they glide over your legs and such much better. I can shave my entire body in about 15 minutes at most, and I do it quite compulsively. It is not the big deal most men, and for that matter women, make it out to be. In fact, I kind of enjoy it. It can be sensual, and is a great way to examine your body for progress--whether you are bulking or cutting, you will be very familiar with your body after a shave. Plus, I love how my skin feels after, so nice and smooth all over, muscles pumped from a workout, it makes me feel sexy.

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#19222 - 03/30/05 01:24 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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Veinlover, have you ever tried the M3 Power razor? I was wondering what you thought of it. I agree the Venus is a very good razor, plus it has the best handle because it was made for leg shaving. IMHO, the M3 has less friction and cuts a little bit closer.

If you can shave your entire body in 15 minutes, you are very fast! It takes me about 20 minutes just to shave my legs. Maybe I am too much of a perfectionist LOL! Do you overlap each pass with the razor? Do you go over any area more than once? It only takes about 1 minute to do my chest and abs, thanks to laser and electrolysis. I stopped shaving my armpits regularly because there isn't enough hair there to make it worthwhile. I just do them once a week.

I am getting the second Lyra-i laser treatment on my full legs in about 2 weeks so the shaving time will decrease. Right now I don't see much growth at all after skipping a day but I can feel some stubble. But even after one laser treatment, I can shave with an electric (Braun Activator) and it feels like I shaved with a blade.

I find one of the best shaving lubricants is Suave Bodywash Moisturizing Formula (white bottle). It works great, I never get cuts when using it, and it's dirt cheap. I got 3 12 oz. bottles of it for about $5 at Meijer's.

RJC2001

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#19223 - 03/30/05 06:17 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
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Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

Veinlover, have you ever tried the M3 Power razor? I was wondering what you thought of it. I agree the Venus is a very good razor, plus it has the best handle because it was made for leg shaving. IMHO, the M3 has less friction and cuts a little bit closer.

If you can shave your entire body in 15 minutes, you are very fast! It takes me about 20 minutes just to shave my legs.
RJC2001




RJC--Yes, I use the M3 power razor on my face every day, and absolutely love it. However, for my body, I much prefer the handle of the Venus, as you say, it is designed for legs. Plus, I don't think the vibrating and very delicate suspension on the shaving head is so good for the whole body. And, I wonder how water proof it is?

I Go over most areas a couple of times, but I move it right along. How can legs take 20 minutes? I first lather up the quads and hams, and shave them. I have a seat in my shower, and can put my foot on it, which makes things much easier. I shave the quads at different angles, depending on the inside or outside, and the hardest part is the hams, with all the tendons, plus you can't see it. I shave that in various direction, hoping for the best. I then do the lower leg, and shave from the ankle up, in overlapping strokes, from ankle to knee. I basically don't shave an area more than once, but overlap maybe 50%. I make long, fast strokes, and when I'm done, my calves are smooth as butter. They are not very hairy, however. Sometimes after I turn off the water, and I get some goosebumps, I shave the parts of the quads again, real quick, that feel stubbly. I'd say I do my legs in 5 minutes. My chest and abs, I do abs first, with strokes from pubes to chest, then from middle to the outer edge. THen, pecs, from abs to clavicle, and from the chestbone to the nipples. This takes only a few minutes. Pits I do from top to bottom, and bottom to top, and from out to in, and in to out, as hairs seem to grow everywhichway. That takes a minute. My arms take a few more minutes, and thats' it. I do my shoulders as well. I cannot imagine taking much longer. I do it everytime I shower, which is every day or two. For whatever reason, partly the shaved pits, I never smell, and can go two or three days easily, not even using deod. Of course, I always shower after a workout. I love shaving after lifting, as I can enjoy the muscles, and feel the veins, as I shave. Plus, it feels nice to be all smooth and pumped. Shaving is actually kind of sensual, and I'm not sure I wouldn't miss it if I got lasered. If I spent an hour, however, I''d go crazy. As it is, it takes me longer than most men to shower.

So, what do you do for 20 minutes with your legs?? Are you extremely hairy?

V.

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#19224 - 04/03/05 04:43 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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My legs aren't that hairy, just average I would say. I shave from my ankles to just above my knees outside of the shower. Visibility is better and I think there is less chance of cutting myself. The hair on my calves grows in different directions so I have to make multiple passes. I probably use slower strokes than you do. Plus the gel dries quickly and I have to stop and reapply water or Moore Unique Hydroglide to maintain the lubrication. Those factors probably account for the longer shave time. I do my quads in the shower. It is easier to shave them and it goes more quickly. If I shave my entire legs in the shower it is quicker. They don't dry out and the Suave Bodywash works great.

I too love shaving after lifting. It feels great to be smooth and pumped! Even though I have very little chest and armpit hair left, it does still feel different after shaving. It must be the exfoliation process LOL!

Which Venus do you use, the standard or the Divine? Is there much difference? They talk about "comfort coated blades" on the Divine. There is also a Venus disposable model.

Thanks for the shaving tips. You're more efficient than I am. How often do you cut yourself? Maybe I should try using quicker strokes. After my next laser treatment, things should get easier and quicker.

RJC2001

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#19225 - 04/03/05 07:32 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
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Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago
RJC, I use the Divine, but the blades are interchangeable, you can keep you regular Venus handle and just buy the Divine Blades. The only difference in handles is colour.

I do the whole shave in the shower, which I'm sure is far quicker, as you don't dry out. My calves are the easiest thing in the world to shave, the hair grows nice and straight, and there isn't too much of it. When I'm done, you'd never know there was ever hair there, and it takes only a minute or two, I swear. I actually begin with the quads, then the hams, then I lather the calves and do them. I have a seat in the shower to rest the foot on, which makes it easier and faster. I almost never cut myself, to be honest. I'm also ambidextrous, so can shave eqully well with either hand, which makes it much easier to get at the off sides, if you shave only with one hand, that may well slow you up. I make long strokes, the entire length of the calf or quad, but and overlap those. I also go side to side on the quads, as the hairs on the inside grow one way, and the ones on the outside go the other. The only real hard part is the hams, which are of course impossible to see, and are full of tendons that make it almost impossible to get a smooth surface. I do my best, and of course, never see the result. I'm not bleeding, so that is good. Like I said , I use both hands, otherwise that area would be virtually impossible. I do prefer a shave gel to other products.

I wonder how many women shave their entire leg, as opposed to only the lower part? What's funny, is I have more hair on the top part than the lower part, by far. Women are the reverse. Maybe its my age. I' sure bodybuilding women shave the whole leg, especially if they use steroids. But, even so, their hair is generally a bit lighter, and probably shaves quicker. The other thing I've found speeds up the process is doing it every day. The less growth, ,the quicker. Plus, it hurts less, and you are less likely to pull one, which can result in bleeding, even though you didn't really cut yourself.

I do think I'd miss shaving after lifting if I got totally lasered, that probably sounds sick. However, it sounds like laser always leaves some behind, so even with laser you still shave, but there is less hair, so it goes quicker (for most of us, anyhow, lol). I take it you have not lasered your legs! I'd love to laser my back, which isn't particularly hairy, but it is on the flanks and looks terrible. I do not shave that very often, as it is too hard, so laser would be wonderful. I'd do pits, too, to get rid of the thick hair there. Problem is cost. Even pits are expensive, ridiculous if you ask me.

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#19226 - 04/04/05 02:11 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 1513
Loc: USA
Thanks for the info. I'll have to try the Divine, it looks like the Venus answer to the Mach3 Turbo.

I agree that shaving every day works best. It saves time in the long run and there are fewer ingrown hairs that way. At first I was reluctant to shave my hams for fear of ingrowns and cuts, but I found that as long as I don't press down too hard with the blade there is no problem.

I use both hands to shave too. It would seem very difficult to do the legs with one hand. On my quads, I go side to side on the inner and outer parts and from the knee straight up on the front. So that goes rather easily. Having a seat in the shower to put my foot on helps a lot. I didn't realize how helpful that was until I shaved my legs in a hotel shower.

BTW, it seems to me that most women shave their entire legs, at least when they go to the beach.

I had two Aurora treatments on my quads and hams a year ago. It removed some hair, but IMHO the Nd:YAG works better. My lower legs were too dark for the Aurora. I had one laser treatment on the full legs this year and am very happy. Shaving with an electric gives the results of a blade, and when I use a blade, it feels like I've never had leg hair. I'm looking forward to my next laser treatment in about 10 days.

BTW, laser worked very well on my back hair. There is only about 10% left and I don't even notice that unless I skip shaving for more than a week. After 1 more laser treatment there I will finish with electrolysis.

One of my goals is to be totally hair-free on my chest and armpits, and I'm almost there. Seems like there is always a few stragglers, but I am getting those with electrolysis.
Since you were quoted such a high price with laser for your armpits, you might as well look into electrolysis. It shouldn't be that much and it works great. The feeling of hair-free armpits is incredible! I never would have guessed it until I had it done!

RJC2001

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#19227 - 04/04/05 05:22 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
barrester Offline

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Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 306
Loc: california
RJC 2001. I agree with you that there is no better sensation than the smooth feeling that come from removing all of ones underarm hair by electrolysis.Shaving is good, waxing is better; but permanent removal is best.It would be nice to know if anyone has ever regreted the permanent removal of hair from any part of their body.
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#19228 - 04/04/05 06:07 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

RJC 2001. I agree with you that there is no better sensation than the smooth feeling that come from removing all of ones underarm hair by electrolysis.Shaving is good, waxing is better; but permanent removal is best.It would be nice to know if anyone has ever regreted the permanent removal of hair from any part of their body.




RJC, that is an excellent question, why not make a thread of it? It would be a great topic.

How long do you think electrolysis of the pits would take? How many hairs can they do in a session? I guess there are hundreds of pit hairs, even thouugh the area is small. Is it never ending, or do you actually sense progress? And, what do you suppose the entire process costs?
Thanks

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#19229 - 04/04/05 10:32 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
barrester Offline

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Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 306
Loc: california
I don't know how long it took to get rid of my underarm hair; but I can tell you that one day I had an operator spend 3 hours on one pit and it made that hairy forest look like a desert. By hindsight, the entire removal was rather short and I had lots of hair. Start on 1 pit and keep track of the time. Many who haven't done it yet would like to know the total hours needed;but my guess is that it won't take more than 4 hours per underarm with the right electrolysist.
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#19230 - 04/05/05 03:51 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
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Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

I don't know how long it took to get rid of my underarm hair; but I can tell you that one day I had an operator spend 3 hours on one pit and it made that hairy forest look like a desert. By hindsight, the entire removal was rather short and I had lots of hair. Start on 1 pit and keep track of the time. Many who haven't done it yet would like to know the total hours needed;but my guess is that it won't take more than 4 hours per underarm with the right electrolysist.




That probably isn't too bad, but I can't imagine it in one sitting like you did. didn't your arm get tired holding it up the entire time? Of course, you probably just lie on your back. And how about boredom? I don't think by the sound of it I have as much, hair, either. If I do it, I will track the time.

What do they charge, roughly, per hour? Hopefully not $100, US. At that price, it would be creeping up on laser, though for underarms, I think I'd just do Electrolysis, at least you know when you are done, you're done for good. Don't you have to do it as the hair growth cycles, as opposed to all in one sitting? And, last, does it hurt?

I'd love to have my pits perfectly smooth and hair free, for some reason, more than anywhere else. Makes the bicep flex look Soooooo good.

Thanks,
V.

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#19231 - 04/05/05 03:59 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 1513
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

RJC 2001. I agree with you that there is no better sensation than the smooth feeling that come from removing all of ones underarm hair by electrolysis.Shaving is good, waxing is better; but permanent removal is best.It would be nice to know if anyone has ever regreted the permanent removal of hair from any part of their body.




Quote:

RJC, that is an excellent question, why not make a thread of it? It would be a great topic.




That was barrester's question. It is a good one, but I would bet there are not many that would answer yes. Pure speculation on my part though.

Quote:

How long do you think electrolysis of the pits would take? How many hairs can they do in a session? I guess there are hundreds of pit hairs, even thouugh the area is small. Is it never ending, or do you actually sense progress? And, what do you suppose the entire process costs?
Thanks





You actually do sense progress when having electrolysis on the armpits, and you can see it early, after 2 treatments. Barrester's estimates seem right on target to me. My cost for electrolysis is $100 per hour and every fifth treatment is free!

RJC2001

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#19232 - 04/05/05 04:37 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago
Quote:



You actually do sense progress when having electrolysis on the armpits, and you can see it early, after 2 treatments. Barrester's estimates seem right on target to me. My cost for electrolysis is $100 per hour and every fifth treatment is free!

RJC2001




So, Are we talking about $800 - $1000 for both pits, depending upon how it goes, more or less? Not cheap, but I envy the result. $100 per hour seems high, but I guess in fact it is $80. Some of the women have said one entire underarm can be done in a couple of hours if the person is good, realising you have to do it again and again as the hair cycles, but like you have said, there is a lot less the next time. I assume women's and men's pits are about the same in terms of hair quantity, depending on the person. I do not have hair all over like some guys do, in fact, I've seen plenty of women with more than I have. One thing I"m beginning to realize is most guys haven't a clue how much body hair women actually have.

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#19233 - 04/05/05 03:15 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
barrester Offline

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Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 306
Loc: california
Veinlover: I think you should be able to find a competent operator for about $60 per hour. Also my observation has been that women seem to have more underarm and pubic hair than men. The electrologists that read this board ought to be able to tell us the answer
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#19234 - 04/07/05 03:29 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 1513
Loc: USA
Quote:



So, Are we talking about $800 - $1000 for both pits, depending upon how it goes, more or less? Not cheap, but I envy the result. $100 per hour seems high, but I guess in fact it is $80. Some of the women have said one entire underarm can be done in a couple of hours if the person is good, realising you have to do it again and again as the hair cycles, but like you have said, there is a lot less the next time. I assume women's and men's pits are about the same in terms of hair quantity, depending on the person. I do not have hair all over like some guys do, in fact, I've seen plenty of women with more than I have. One thing I"m beginning to realize is most guys haven't a clue how much body hair women actually have.




Electrolysis rates vary a lot depending on where you live. There are not many electrologists around me, and it's even more difficlut to find a good one. The high rates are one of the reasons I started with laser and am finishing with electrolysis.

James, our resident electrolysis resource, said in another thread that it usually takes about 3 full clearings to make the armpits hairless.

I've seen women with more arm and leg hair than I have, and I have an average amount in those areas. In Antigua, the women don't shave their legs. That was quite a surprise to me. And a lot women don't shave their arms, even here in the US.

RJC2001

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#19235 - 04/07/05 04:34 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
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Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago
I figured 3 full clearings, maybe 3 hours each, times $60 - $80 per hour, that is $600 - $800 for the whole thing. Just as a guestimate.

Regarding women's arms, the ONLY women I've seen shave their arms are bodybuilders, though I've seen lots of women who probably would look better if they did. I would guess more men shave their arms than women. And, While most people think women just have hair on their lower leg, I've seen women with more hair on their upper and lower legs both than I have, I was rather surprised myself. I would guess that on average women have a lot less hair on their quads and hams than men, but certainly there are women with a lot of hair all oveer their legs. I must say, I'm very glad Hollywood got women to shave their legs. Same with their pits, I've seen women with unbelieveable amounts of underarm hair, and, once again, that is my least favourite place to have hair, so once more, thank you Hollywood.

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#19236 - 04/08/05 12:37 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 1513
Loc: USA
Quote:

I figured 3 full clearings, maybe 3 hours each, times $60 - $80 per hour, that is $600 - $800 for the whole thing. Just as a guestimate.

Regarding women's arms, the ONLY women I've seen shave their arms are bodybuilders, though I've seen lots of women who probably would look better if they did. I would guess more men shave their arms than women. And, While most people think women just have hair on their lower leg, I've seen women with more hair on their upper and lower legs both than I have, I was rather surprised myself. I would guess that on average women have a lot less hair on their quads and hams than men, but certainly there are women with a lot of hair all oveer their legs. I must say, I'm very glad Hollywood got women to shave their legs. Same with their pits, I've seen women with unbelieveable amounts of underarm hair, and, once again, that is my least favourite place to have hair, so once more, thank you Hollywood.





I'll second that, thank you Hollywood!

While I'm thinking of it, how many shaves do you get out of one Venus cartridge?

RJC2001

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#19237 - 04/09/05 05:33 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
Veinlover Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 121
Loc: Chicago






I'll second that, thank you Hollywood!

While I'm thinking of it, how many shaves do you get out of one Venus cartridge?

RJC2001




I never paid too much attention, I probably use one for a couple of weeks, easily, and shave my entire body every time I shower, which is most, but not all, days. In other words, they last a long time. I usually change it when it begins to pull a bit, I'm sure each is good for 10 body shaves. My body hair is much finer than face hair, so it seems I can use a blade on my body at least as long as one on my face, amazing isn't it. Also, probably the face is more sensitive. The only body hair I have that is very thick is on my pits, and chest (pubes, too, of course, but I don't shave them, except shaft and nuts). The rest, while dark, is pretty fine. I think those Venus cartridges are extremely good, especially the Divine ones. You can keep a spare in the shower, they are individually wrapped for that purpose.

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#19238 - 04/10/05 05:17 AM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward
RJC2001 Offline

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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 1513
Loc: USA
I bought some Venus cartridges and tried one this morning. I was very impressed with it. It seems to have the very low friction blades like the M3 Power and the M3 Turbo. I haven't used the Venus in about 2 years. I forgot how good that handle is. I can grab that little step on the top to shave the rear delts. Very handy.

Another thing that surprised me was the price of the Divine cartridges, just about as much as the M3 Power.

The hair on my legs is not coarse, just average, so shaving gives very good results. It should give even better results after my second laser treatment next week. My beard used to be coarse, but after 5 laser treatments, it is 70-75 percent gone, and that's a lot of hair. The remaining beard hair is quite a bit finer. 3 weeks after my last beard treatment, the M3 is still pulling dead hairs out! Very cool! Now I can shave in a more reasonable amount of time.

RJC2001

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#60286 - 02/28/09 08:14 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward [Re: RJC2001]
GUS Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1
I'm new around here and i pratice bodybuilding almost 10 years....

Unwanted hair was always a problem for me and i tried shaving... waxing and of course... laser treatments.

If you take testosterone hormones it doesnt make any sense to remove body hair with laser or electrolys system because hormones make stronger your body hair and laser/electrolys will try to weak them... so it will be a waste of money... you wont get rid of your unwanted hair... just your money...

Razoor blades were terrible with me, i have sensitive skin... and wax was painfull and i had terrible skin irritation everytime i made them in a sallon...

for these reasons i CHOOSE PHILIPS BODYGROOM!!! it's affordable, quick and painless. It cuts your hair, yeah right, but in 40 m all the body is done! and without irritations, itches and specially does not consume your money everytime you go to a sallon. I'm portuguese and i really know the huge prices of laser and electrolysis systems!!!

if you dont know the BODYGROOM just go to the site of norelco or philips, depending your country.

PS- i dont sell philips products.... but i advice all of bodybuilding atletes friends of mine to try the bodygroom shaver as the most quick and cheaper way of having a perfect hairless skin!

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#60291 - 02/28/09 09:41 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward [Re: GUS]
dfahey Offline

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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9542
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
And we thank you for that tip, Gus. Very helpful.

We are born with a certain amount of follicles. New follicles will not develop during our lifetime. We are all set to go after birth. Laser and electrolysis will destroy the follicles that are active, but if sleeping follicles come alive because of drugs, they can be treated, as needed or prn as many say in the health care industry. Pretty soon, one will run out of follicles to treat if they keep at it long enough.

Shaving would certainly be cheaper! Has anyone else used the Philips Bodygroom?

Dee
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
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ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#60293 - 02/28/09 10:26 PM Re: Hair Removal by Ryan Ward [Re: dfahey]
James W. Walker VII Offline

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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 8036
Loc: Buffalo NY, & Traveling the US...
I still think we should point out that permanent hair removal would still work for a bodybuilder, even if he were in violation of several athletic testing standards wink

The only difference is we might have to continue to maintain an area whereas a person who was not anabolically enhanced would have finished long ago.
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08/15/17 04:37 PM
Another French Medical Plucker
by James W. Walker VII
08/15/17 08:59 AM
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