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#81321 - 12/21/10 05:37 PM Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
Dee, all I can say is that if you had any confidence in anything you were saying, you wouldn't have the need to resort to belittling and baseless namecalling. You're acting like an immature kid in middle school who yells and screams and calls everyone names instead of just sticking to the facts.

- Government programs don't have to be inefficient. It's not a given and not something that cannot be set up in a way that isn't. Any government program can be made accountable with rules and laws just like any other organization. The public education system in other countries demands accountability from teachers and schools, which is why it's so much better than the US. Just because something is paid by the government doesn't have to mean it's inefficient. It's all about how you set up the system to operate. There is no reason competition and accountability couldn't be built into the model.

- If you're familiar with Google Finance, then surely you're able to look up profits of the major insurance and pharmaceudical companies. If they were 4%, no one would invest in their stocks. Insurance companies are, in fact, making their record profits: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/health-insurers-post-record-profits/story?id=9818699

- Obama's healthcare changes prevent insurance companies from throwing people off when they get a deadly medical condition. That's something. But let's discuss what you think of this if/when you or your loved one gets cancer or another deadly disease. It's always a lot easier to speak in abstract terms when the current flawed system doesn't impact you personally just yet.

- If members of Congress didn't enjoy a tax-payer-funded healthcare themselves and weren't getting shmoozed by insurance and pharmaceudical lobbiests, the problem of insurance companies being run as for-profit entities at the expense of people's health would be resolved a lot quicker.

Anyway, I have other countries to visit and things to see over the holidays (you know, the type of stuff that makes you experience things outside your box). This will have to be continued in the new year.

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#81516 - 01/02/11 06:27 AM Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Ding! Happy New Year!

-Your link to ABC News is bogus statistical wizardry. It's more propaganda filled with magical fulminations, stretched and contorted to mean whatever looks good for the opposing side's government takeover of health care. This is what ABC "News" does well - it is the propaganda arm of this administration. The numbers come from an ultra liberal organization comprised of 1,000 ultra liberal donors, including unions, acorn chapters, and so on (list of donors is on the website) and you expect to convince others that you are not biased or unfair? You slipped up or else you rushed your post.

-If you have been reduced to basing your argument, with reliance on ABC "News", The Daily Kos, Paul Krugman and The New York Times, then you need to find sources with much better facts. Let me help you a bit. Credible statistics on health care are readily available from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

-Insurance profits have varied between 2% - 8% over the years. And, why should they not make a profit? These are not gouging numbers. When we buy food, the food corporations make a profit. When we buy clothes, the manufacturers and business connected to them, make a profit. When we buy shelter, the real estate agent makes a profit and in turn, the local government collects property taxes. When we buy a car, used or pre-owned, that company makes a profit. These are things we need, food clothing and shelter and most probably a car. These are needs, just like health care, so why is health care any different? Obama needed a scapegoat and health insurance corporations are the lucky winners and you are robotically falling in line with fake facts.

-I couldn't keep a straight face when you said, "Government programs don't have to be inefficient. It's not a given and not something that cannot be set up in a way that isn't." The French word "naive" comes to mind. Can you list some federal programs that are efficient, with minimal fraud, corruption or waste? Same will happen with government controlled health care (socialism). We already have seen the furure with Medicare and Medicaid, Veterens Adminisstration, DMV, post office, katrina to name a few. We are told that HR3590 with all it's 2,200 pages that congress people admitted to not reading before passing, will bring health care coverage to 30 million more people and reduce costs. More bunk. Reducing costs means rationing the care. Who decides this? This new health care bill is so full of holes that congress had to pass it quickly so Americans could not possibly have the opportunity to ask the hard questions that they the congress and the president could not answer with a straight face. Passing it quick like a bunny was their only chance for passage, so how good can it be?

-Somebody asked what would Jesus do. I am not a theologian, but I feel pretty sure that he would be against trickery with numbers. He would not approve of the stern command and control techniques that are being used to run the health insurance industry. He would not want free choice to be minimized by maximizing brute force ---- forcing people to buy certain kinds of politically designed insurance, forcing insurers to cover services many consumers do not want to pay for and forcing insurers to curb premiums even as medical costs go up. The concepts of competition and free markets with limited government would settle this better than the so-called educated liberal elitists who are full of good intentions, but somehow always miss the mark for achieving a good outcome where unintended things result that make people's lives harder and more expensive in the end. Jesus would probably say in conclusion, "Blessed are the children, for they shall inherit the national debt".

Hey, James, I just noticed that this thread was split away from "Plucking by the Electrologist" and re-titled somewhat appropriately. Next time I talk to you, remind me to tell you about my whirlwind trip to Dublin and London last week.




_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#81643 - 01/05/11 11:14 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
- ABC News and dozens of other independent organizations didn't create anything out of thin air. They posted actual numbers. The only thing you can contradict them with are conflicting actual numbers. You don't post any, so I'm assuming you don't have them. Ranting that dozens of established organizations are all lying is not a fact that you can debate with. Post links to numbers from credible sources.

- I already provided you with examples of efficiently run gov't organizations above - see my comment about the education system in other countries where student education levels are miles ahead of the US (South Korea, Finland, Japan, etc).

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#81648 - 01/06/11 03:46 AM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Just because established institutions like ABC "News" have been in existence for years, does not mean it can't spew propaganda that jacks up a political party they identify with. If you read the piece, you would have seen that even ABC reports that the health insurance companies fall below what average business profits are. ABC quoted 5.7% profit as a whole. This story is clearly one more reflection of the shameful deceit and descent of what ABC News want the masses to believe, as opposed to getting down on the real problems of how to get affordable, accessible health care for all American citizens. Government control over anything is always an unmitigated disaster.

Here are some real numbers with real sources listed. Be careful, viewing this link could cause hormonal imbalance on a scale that causes massive insane hair growth.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/


Do you understand what the word 'TRILLION' means? Why are you comparing our economy and a 310,000,000 U.S. population with countries like South Korea, Finland and Japan? You are trying to compare apples to oranges which shows you are in total denial about this national debt. I'm very cranky because my instincts tell me this is going to end be very bad. Going bankrupt is a national defense issue and it uplifts and helps no one whether they are in the "R" camp or the "D" camp. In the end, health care profits account for very little in the big scheme, just like food profits, clothing profits and shelter profits, so conserve your energy.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#81653 - 01/06/11 03:40 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
- Do you understand how insurance companies make a profit? Do you understand what being a publicly traded company means? Have you ever purchased a stock? Do you understand what the goal of any publicly traded business is? --> To make as much profit as possible. Do you know what profit is? Money they take in minus expenses. Our system is set up in a way that encourages insurance companies to get out of spending on your health as much as possible so they can make the most money (that's the only way they make money, i.e. denying claims or dropping expensive members). If you don't see how this is a fundamental problem that doesn't result in providing the best healthcare to the population, you are not actually thinking.

- The 5.7% number is not talking about profits. It's talking about spending. Are you actually reading? Have you taken an accounting course?

- You still haven't provided any contradicting numbers. Baseless rants aren't facts. The profit numbers from the article come straight from the insurance companies financial statements that they have to disclose to shareholders. They're available to everyone publicly. I have a feeling you've never purchased a stock and don't really understand how the stock market works (or the economy in general since this is a huge part of it).

- Japan's population is not that different, especially considering the fact that they have almost 4 times the density (i.e. our area is much bigger, but they have almost 4 times more people living per square kilometer). You've probably never tried to get into a subway in Tokyo, I have.
Do some research first. Either way, a good model is a good model. If it works, it works, regardless of the size.

- Healthcare is not the spending that resulted in our debt. Wars, defense, and lack of regulation for the banks did. That's what you need to be focusing on if you're so worried about it. Did you worry about our debt when you were pro-war? What about when you scream for lack of regulations for corporations (like the banks that got us into a lot of this mess)?

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#81655 - 01/06/11 05:35 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
-I never stated my position on being pro-war or anti-war. I never stated my position about lack of regulations (or over-regulating) for corporations. So, how do you know what is in my heart? You are profiling me again like only a well-indoctrinated highly educated liberal elitist does best.

-I actually appreciate all the good products and services corporations bring to mankind, but do count me in as among the first to strongly condemn any business that oversteps,deceives or cooks the books. My hate and disdain for such institutions runs deep. Did you see "Inside Job" yet? That's what I'm talking about, but in this documentary, we are talking about banks, wall street and government -all cozy buddies in crime. I don't think you have any idea of what many well-run corporations do with their profits, let alone for mankind. What did they "teach" you at UC Berkeley?

-Go to www.usdebtclock.org and tell me again that healthcare has not been a major contributer to our national debt. Cost of wars, Social Security, interest on the debt falls behind the spending levels of government run health care, Medicare and Medicaid. They are all listed under largest budget items section. I'm trying so hard to keep a straight face when you declare such things smirk .
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#81657 - 01/06/11 08:15 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
- What corporations do with their profits is irrelevant. Are you even following the discussion or you're too busy coming up with baseless insults? We're talking about the fact that insurance companies profits come as a direct result of NOT paying for medical services. This is a fundamental problem with the way our system is set up. Why should any company profit from not providing the best thing possible for people? You are ignoring the basic premise of this entire discussion.

- Are you proposing to get rid of Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security? I'm guessing you're almost at an age when you are going to be relying on it, if you're not already. If not, you should focus on the wars/national defense spending, which is using up just as much without anything to show for it. Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid are keeping people alive.

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#81661 - 01/07/11 01:38 AM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- What corporations do with their profits is irrelevant........ We're talking about the fact that insurance companies profits come as a direct result of NOT paying for medical services............ Why should any company profit from not providing the best thing possible for people?........



Okay, I just about spewed my vegetable steamed dumpling with no MSG, no preservatives and no trans fats across the room when I read this. So, why is health care any different than food, clothing and shelter? People need food, clothing and shelter,too. Should food corporations, clothing corporations and home/apartment real estate corporations/businesses make profits? Should communication companies make profits? How about transportation services. Profits for them? Just who should and who should not make profits according to you? Since people need food, clothing and shelter, should any profit they make go towards giving those profits back for more or cheaper food, clothing and shelter? Or, should those industries not work for profit?

Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- Are you proposing to get rid of Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security? I'm guessing you're almost at an age when you are going to be relying on it, if you're not already. If not, you should focus on the wars/national defense spending, which is using up just as much without anything to show for it. Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid are keeping people alive.


-Let me put it this way, if a for profit business was run the way Medicare and Medicaid have been run for 50 of the 65 years it has been around, then, that for profit business would have been long gone by now and a new model, a new brand, would have replaced it that could show accountability and sustainability. That is how free markets and competition settle things and that is better for the consumer patient side of things.

-I'm not holding my breath thinking I will receive what I have paid into Social Security during all my work years and you shouldn't either. Better psychologically prepare yourself. It is grossly underfunded. We are broke and the promises are fake promises. The money isn't really there. Refer to www.usdebtclock.org . Check out state debt top left hand corner. According to this clock, your state, New York, is really, really broke. The state you resided in last is really, really, really, REALLY broke. My state, Ohio, is just really broke.


_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#81670 - 01/07/11 05:14 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
- You seem to lack the basic understanding of economics and how different businesses operate and make money. Healthcare is not food. You pay for food yourself. Insurance companies are the ones paying for your healthcare. All companies make money when they spend less than they take in. Companies that sell food, clothing, and other goods make money when they spend smart and sell a lot of product at a premium. Insurance companies make money when they sell policies to people and then spend as little as possible when those people want to get medical treatment. They don't make money by spending money on your healthcare. And if they spent everyone's premiums every year, they wouldn't make any money. Their goal is to charge as much for premiums as possible and spend as little as possible on your healthcare (i.e. having members who pay premiums, but don't use much healthcare and drop people who are too expensive to keep). A 10-year-old can grasp this basic difference. Healthcare is not clothing or food because we have insurance companies. I already tried to explain this basic concept to you a few pages ago: if people were purchasing all healthcare directly from healthcare providers, then the economics would be similar. But with insurance companies being the middleman, it's not.

- The Social Security you'll be getting will be money that I am paying, not you. The money that you've paid has already been paid out to others before you. I'm the one who should be worried, not you.

- Either way, you are missing the point, again. Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid have been around for dozens of years now during times of prosperity and some of the best economic times. That's not what caused the issues you're referring to. The war spending did (do you realize how many gov't contracts for this are being given out to private corporations with stock ties to Republican gov't members? Since you're basing a lot of your knowledge on movies, I hope they addressed this) along with the other issues I mentioned. Those are the new ones that got us into this mess.

- Once again, a gov't organization doesn't have to be inefficient. A gov't organization can be built on a model that involves competition too. Competition is not exclusive to private corporations. Teachers in schools who are turning out kids with higher test scores could be getting higher salaries, for example. Labor unions are the ones who don't want this and other similar competition in such gov't organizations. Since you like movies, go see Waiting for Superman or just read what Michelle Rhee tried to do in DC and how she was prevented from doing it.

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#81672 - 01/07/11 07:30 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
You seem to lack basic understanding of economics and how different health care companies work to not run into deficits and thus fall over a cliff, like our brilliant, big, bloated government does, despite the fact, that government run insurance (Medicare and Medicaid) turns down more claims than the private industry insurance companies do.

You and our beloved politicians love to show sympathy and deep concern for the consumer/patient by insisting that health insurance companies have to include certain unfunded benefit mandates. Mandates FORCE a business to offer things without offering them financial help to enforce those mandates. Mandates severely limit the free markets ability to develop and offer inexpensive plans that are tailored to individual buyers' needs. State governments continue to meddle and demand benefit mandate laws, telling health care insurers that they must pay for or offer specific treatments whether they like it or not.


Thirty years ago, there were only about five mandate laws per state. Today, there on average about 40 mandates per state. The list of mandates I just found is long, but not by no means complete. They include - massage therapy, hearing aids, hormone replacement therapy, breast reductions, hair prosthesis, acupuncture,chiropractor visits, dieticians, contraceptives, drug abuse and alcohol abuse treatment, athletic trainer, marriage therapy, morbid obesity treatment, pastoral services, smoking sensation, speech therapy, varicose vein removal, port-wine stain elimination, in-vitro fertilization.............and on and on and on...........

These mandates are FORCED upon health care companies and alas, these mandates, full of good intentions, cause the insurance premiums to rise. The obvious result is costs are driven up for everybody, due to government meddling with private run companies that have to balance the budget somehow. Because the government seems to think they don't have to have healthy balance sheets, they just keep running deficits and raising taxes for their flippant failures.

Because of government interference, a healthy 24 year old can't get a catastrophic only policiy with low premiums, so they become one of the invincibles that simply don't contribute to the insurance pool because they are priced out of the market, thus driving costs up further. So, when the 24 year breaks her leg skating, she has no insurance, but she still gets treatment, thus driving the cost up for those who have insurance that pay for her hospital bills by paying higher premiums. Good deal for her, bad deal for the the ones dutifully paying premiums. Government mandates cause costs to go up > then, insurance companies have to charge more > then insurance companies are evil and greedy > then government comes to our rescue to save us from a problem they caused?! Vicious.

Read up on Oregon and Massachusetts reform efforts. The price tags and access to care have been sobering. Illinois under Blago attempted to take a look at government run health care and it was voted down. There was not one vote in favor because of the price tag. In Wisconsin, again, government run health care voted down - too expensive. Connecticut? Price tag - cringe time there, too. Schwarzenegger, gone, but he, too, saw the price tag shock of government run health care and thus, there is no universal health care there either. You ask WHY???? Mandates and high taxes. Also, when the people that benefit from services do not directly pay for the services and the services are easily available, costs spiral out of control.

If people want one-size-fits-all health care, then politicians need to be very honest and talk about the doubling of taxes, being forced to pay higher premiums, long waiting times and lists, rationed care, and limited access to the newest and best cutting-edge medicine and surgeries that are readily availbale today.

I trust the free market and the spirit of competition to bring more to many. No doubt, the cost of care goes down within the structures of a free market. Government needs to butt out because they are by nature very inefficient, burdensome and clumsy. There is proof in what I am saying. I just gave you the mandate example that even a ten year old can understand.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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