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#81677 - 01/07/11 09:54 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
- You're again missing the point. The current system sucks. We shouldn't have insurance companies controlling healthcare of the population. We should have a system where the incentive is to provide the best care at the best price. That's not what we currently have. Gov't incentives or anything else aren't going to fix the fundamental problem with the current system.

- We already addressed the whole Medicare/Medicaid issue. Those supposed denials have a reason. Medicare/Medicaid doesn't drop people as they don't need to make a profit. Insurance company numbers adjusted for dropped customers would be way higher.

- You still haven't answered: should we get rid of Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security? If the answer is NO, then you need to stop bringing it up. It refutes your point.

- The gov't doesn't "think" anything. It's not an entity that thinks or has a profit-making goal in mind. The gov't role only has one concern by definition: working for the good of the people. You don't seem to understand that the only negatives that come from any gov't operations are caused by the same corporations you're defending because they're the ones who are using lobbiests to get gov't members to do what they want. The gov't itself doesn't "want" to do anything. There are special interests, who are those same corporations you defend, who pressure the gov't to do things that are in their best financial interests.

- You don't know what you're talking about. A healthy 24-year-old has no problems getting any policy they want because they're young and healthy. Those are exactly the type of members insurance companies love. I've bought those policies when I was 24 and so have my friends. 24-year-olds are the healthiest ones out there. They're not the ones driving anything up. It's the older people who have pre-existing conditions and can't get an insurance company to offer them an affordable plan because they're simply too expensive to keep on any plan. Plus, you lack logic in your entire statement. Insurance companies don't pay for anyone who's not insured. Hospitals who give them free treatment do.

- What is expensive? How much is that? You don't know what you're talking about again. Healthcare in the US is most expensive in the world. If anything you say was true, it would be cheapest. Healthcare is just like any other commodity that is too expensive and impractical for individuals to pay for out of pocket, like roads. Those other commodities are gov't-managed for that reason. No one ever addresses getting rid of insurance companies altogether. Right now, we have a system where individuals mostly have no idea what anything costs, so expense is irrelevant to them due to existence of insurance companies. No competition for healthcare prices can be possible under these conditions. The supposed competition that you say supposedly drives healthcare prices down doesn't exist in this country. That's why we have the most expensive care in the world.

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#81682 - 01/08/11 04:52 AM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I heard some journalist say, "If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it is free."

Okay. Point by point again:



Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- You're again missing the point. The current system sucks. We shouldn't have insurance companies controlling healthcare of the population. We should have a system where the incentive is to provide the best care at the best price. That's not what we currently have. Gov't incentives or anything else aren't going to fix the fundamental problem with the current system.


I am not missing the point, I have been outlining to you in first grade language, that I don't agree with your utopian liberal views. Government interference, along with their lack of accountability is the problem. Unfunded mandates are the problem. The proponents of government run health care seem to think that the Tooth Fairy, aka The American Taxpayer, will keep coming up with a magical supply of money. A free market approach that incentivizes and rewards human behavior, along with, perhaps, very little government influence. That is our best hope for sustainabilty. In fact, the NHS in Britain, UK is NOW talking about looking into starting some privatization measures to save the NHS as the systems finances are spiraling out of control. The PC Trusts, 151 of them, are being eliminated by 2013 and the GP's will now have the final say over who gets what/when. This is a role that they are not wanting for obvious reasons, but, alas, they are being forced to do this by the "system".

The Canadian Health System have mentioned the "P" word as well, meaning "p" as in privatization, to control costs.
We have Canadians coming across the border for cancer drugs that American pharmaceutical companies have invented over an average period of 10-15 years at a cost of 1.3 BILLION dollars. These cancer drugs show great promise. The best hope for survival can't be had if the drug is deemed too expensive and thus, is not approved in the Canadian formularies. Hip replacement surgery, mitral valve surgery are done here in the US, without the typical 18 month wait time in Canada. Canadian quadruplets were born in Montana because there were not enough neonatal intensive-care beds for all four babies in Calgary. The US health care system does not suck (your word) 80% are very satisfied with the system when they are sick and need the best. Yes, the sick are served at great cost and quality. Yes, it is very expensive here, but there are enough MRI machines, CT scanners, and researchers, well-trained doctor/specialists and high tech innovative news breaking approaches in regard to disease and injury. The expensive job of inventing medical devices and medications are done here. So, what price do you put on curing someone with lymphoma, leukemia, breast cancer, prostate cancer?

The working poor and the non-working poor get treated, but more so, as the government keeps dictating what doctors and hospitals will get paid for Medicare and Medicaid services, more doctors are refusing to take care of these government insured patients. So, in the meantime, emergency departments are filling up and the wait times are miserable. All this is government initiated and the poor and elderly suffer the most because of governing by good intentions. The government run health care programs keep racking up costs, so they institute price controls by cutting reimbursements to doctors and hospitals and they ration care by denying claims. Eventually, doctors refuse to see government dependent patients. I could pull out more examples of the pitfalls of government interference, but I will stop for now. The list of examples is very long.


Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- We already addressed the whole Medicare/Medicaid issue. Those supposed denials have a reason. Medicare/Medicaid doesn't drop people as they don't need to make a profit. Insurance company numbers adjusted for dropped customers would be way higher.


In reality, the denials are disguised price controls measures. Price controls always raise prices. The socialist government plans ration care with denials as well. Private companies do this as well, but not as much as government run plans. So, where does the patient/consumer go? The patient shows up in the emergency department where federal law mandates that they must be treated. Government insurance, which they are already enrolled in, rejected them, so now the costs are passed onto the private sector and we pay higher premiums to cover the cost. Hospitals lose money , go out of business, or they just pass it on disguised as the $100 aspirin. Somebody has to pay for the doctor, nurse, I.V.'s, catheters, latex gloves, paper products, janitorial care,electricity and medications that were consumed by the patient. Seriously, tell me you don't know this.

Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- You still haven't answered: should we get rid of Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security? If the answer is NO, then you need to stop bringing it up. It refutes your point.


If we:

Had portability and did not have health insurance tied to a job
Change the tax code
Reduce costly government mandates
Made it possible for people to purchase insurance across
state lines
Increase the limits for contributing to tax-free health
savings accounts and let that money roll over each year
to accrue so people could directly pay for non-catastrophic
health care costs
Increase clinics that are located in retail places such as Target, Wal-Mart, CVS, Walgreens so there is cheap, 24/7 care available for all
Insist on TORT reform so physicians wouldn't have to practice defensive medicine by ordering too many expensive tests to cover their azzes against lawsuits
Provide vouchers for the working poor and the chronically uninsured and put them in high risk pools and fund those pools

.....THEN we could possibly phase out or limit the need for these big government financial failures called Medicare and Medicaid, that are eventually going to go bust anyway. Social Security should not be an issue for anyone above the age of 40, they will get their money, as promised. But, serious steps should be taken to protect the younger workers from paying for this cruel Ponzi scheme tax which will collapse as well, and won't be there for them. These are not my ideas, but I happen to like these ideas. I have studied information from various think tanks that employ health care economists experts who study these issues as a career choice. How's that for answer?



Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- The gov't doesn't "think" anything. It's not an entity that thinks or has a profit-making goal in mind. The gov't role only has one concern by definition: working for the good of the people. You don't seem to understand that the only negatives that come from any gov't operations are caused by the same corporations you're defending because they're the ones who are using lobbiests to get gov't members to do what they want. The gov't itself doesn't "want" to do anything. There are special interests, who are those same corporations you defend, who pressure the gov't to do things that are in their best financial interests.


The government doesn't have a profit making motive in mind? You think like a child. grin Well, I guess many politicians would never think of listening to the lobbyists and special interest groups to get a bill passed or be bribed with earmarks in exchange for a yes vote on Obamacare. I suppose you think that there are no politicians that want to control people, but rather only help them. You think like a child. And, no politician would ever desire power or money. Amazing how many go into congress with a modest amount of money and come out multi-millionaires. Most are only concerned with getting votes for the next election and will say and do anything for those votes. You think like a child.


Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- You don't know what you're talking about. A healthy 24-year-old has no problems getting any policy they want because they're young and healthy. Those are exactly the type of members insurance companies love. I've bought those policies when I was 24 and so have my friends. 24-year-olds are the healthiest ones out there. They're not the ones driving anything up. It's the older people who have pre-existing conditions and can't get an insurance company to offer them an affordable plan because they're simply too expensive to keep on any plan. Plus, you lack logic in your entire statement. Insurance companies don't pay for anyone who's not insured. Hospitals who give them free treatment do.


The young "invincibles" are choosing in large numbers not to purchase insurance because they are being priced out of the market by mandates and lack of choice to purchase policies that meet their needs as 24 year olds. Check out what's happening in New Jersey and Massachusetts. The younger people pay higher rates than necessary in part to cover the older or chronically ill. They drop their insurance or don't consider buying insurance at all, knowing that they will still get treatment if they break their leg or get injured in a car accident. So, what is the incentive for them to have insurance in the first place?


Originally Posted By: LAgirl
- What is expensive? How much is that? You don't know what you're talking about again. Healthcare in the US is most expensive in the world. If anything you say was true, it would be cheapest. Healthcare is just like any other commodity that is too expensive and impractical for individuals to pay for out of pocket, like roads. Those other commodities are gov't-managed for that reason. No one ever addresses getting rid of insurance companies altogether. Right now, we have a system where individuals mostly have no idea what anything costs, so expense is irrelevant to them due to existence of insurance companies. No competition for healthcare prices can be possible under these conditions. The supposed competition that you say supposedly drives healthcare prices down doesn't exist in this country. That's why we have the most expensive care in the world.



Healthcare is expensive, but quality, availability of medical equipment such as MRI's CT scanners, accessibility and cutting edge cancer drugs and innovations are some of the big items there for us in time of need. We don't have wait times like many single payer systems have in other countries. In fact, many come to America to get the best, right away. Money well spent.

Okay, so we can accept a government takeover by reducing our options, imposing mandates, raising taxes, imposing price controls and rationing, thus distorting the free open market or we can work towards putting doctors, patients and consumers in charge by freeing the health care markets so choices are maximized. Innovations will keep coming as well. People want freedom and choice, especially when it comes to life and death matters. I back freedom - not more government control.

_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#81709 - 01/09/11 05:13 AM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
Basquelady Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/10
Posts: 4
The Tea Party members and Right wing radio now appear to have blood on their hands. Democratic Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, a Federal Judge and a 9 year girl plus 9 others are now victims of right wing rhetoric.
Under your Corperate Health plan would they qualify for health insurance?
Tea Party Queen, Sarah Palin, in a shocking display of violent extremism, targeted Democratic Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords for defeat by putting the Congresswoman in a rifle crosshairs graphic on her SarahPAC website.

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who was gravely wounded in Tucson today should die, she will be the first political victim of Sarah Palin’s Tea Party.

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#81715 - 01/09/11 04:23 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: Basquelady]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Well said, Basquelady! smirk

From NewsWeek magazine, Eleanor Clift wrote:

"She talked about her struggles as a moderate: "It's held against you if you cross party lines.” Case in point: the first vote she cast in this new Congress as one of some 20 Democrats opposing Nancy Pelosi as minority leader drew a Daily Kos screed titled “My Congresswoman voted against Pelosi, now she’s dead to me.” (After the shooting, Daily Kos removed that post from the site.)"

Full Story here: http://www.newsweek.com/2011/01/08/the-gabrielle-giffords-i-know.html

Having a great medical institution with high tech, expensive medical equipment nearby, along with the best medical team saved her life. I'm praying for her and the other victims and their families and I hope you are, too. Please include in your heart-felt prayers all those who are on the fringe and are mentally ill, like the shooter. Psychosis is a terrible disorder, as we all sadly witnessed yesterday.


smirk
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#81760 - 01/10/11 10:34 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
You are gravely misinformed, Dee. It's interesting to see how Fox News twists facts to make illogical points and then see people like you repeat them.

- People in Europe or Canada are NOT asking their gov't to change to an American system. It's the Americans asking their gov't to change to the European system. If nothing else, that should give you an indication of what people think is best and prefer. The only people "satisfied" with the system are those who haven't experienced not having the care they need yet (you're obviously included in this). Just because something is available doesn't mean that you'll be able to afford it. You're in favor of cancelling Medicare right? Talk to me in 20 years when you'll want it.

- Canadians getting drugs from the US? This is beyond ridiculous. The only drugs Canadians can't get are those that American pharmaceutical companies are not distributing abroad in order to protect their profits at home - because they can and do charge Americans much more for them due to lack of regulation. American drug companies don't want Canadian drug price competition. That was addressed in Obama's healthcare bill as well for that reason. Why should Americans pay much more for drugs? Try going outside of the US and buying the same drugs and you'll see the difference. I have. I had to buy prescription eye drops in South Africa and they cost me $12. Then I had to buy the same ones here in the US and they were $65 AFTER insurance. Is this ok with you?

- Taxes are not Ponzi schemes. They're a necessity to provide you with all those services that you enjoy and don't actually pay for out of pocket. Americans pay less taxes than pretty much all other countries, and you still think it's too much. What is this magic number that you would like to pay and how did you come up with it? We had prosperity at higher tax rates in this country, and we have the worst economic times at some of the lowest taxes rates currently. Your statements don't align with facts. Look around.

- Your problem is that you can't seem to distinguish between "the government" and "government members who take bribes from corporations to do what corporations want". If you actually read what I wrote, you wouldn't state the same BS twenty times over. Any corruption in the gov't is the result of corporations paying gov't members off. It's not the result of the gov't being the "big bad wolf" that you make it out to be. Try to use logic and not first grade "good" and "bad" terms. Everything is a result of something. Gov't's intent by nature is to act on behalf of people. Corporations' intent by nature is to make a profit at the expense of whatever it takes. Any benefit to individuals is a consequence, not the intent.

- How much is "too expensive" for these invincibles you created in your mind? It's the cheapest insurance I've ever paid when I was 24. My current rates through my employer are much higher. Once again, you don't understand what's actually causing insurance rates to rise. And the main thing you don't understand is that insurance rates will ALWAYS RISE because insurance companies need to make a PROFIT. They don't have any incentive to drop their rates. They need to make a profit EVERY QUARTER. Buy a stock. It's a pointless discussion if you don't understand what a stock market is and how it operates and impacts everything else.

- Do you know anyone personally who came to te US from a first world country to get medical treatment? I doubt it. I know plenty of foreigners as I lived in foreign countries and they're all satisfied with their care. In fact, in France, a doctor came to my home when I was sick. Can you get that type of care in the US? You base your "knowledge" of who comes to what country to do things on Fox News propoganda. Those aren't facts. They find rare instances of things, blow them out of proportion, and brainwash people like you who have never actually left the country or know many foreigners themselves to think whatever they want you to think. It's laughable.

- Ok what? Once again, consumers will have zero control over their care or the price of healthcare as long as insurance companies are involved. Current gov't regulation or involvement of any type is irrelevant to this point. Insurance companies' interests are in direct opposition of consumers' interests. You seem to refuse to understand this simple basic concept. Insurance companies could care less about your health. All they care about taking in more money in premiums than they spend on your care.

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#81765 - 01/11/11 04:00 AM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: LAgirl]
Basquelady Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/10
Posts: 4
Dee Fahey

We're now seeing the sad spectacle of an endless stream of far right wingers
on  trying desperately to deny that their violent political rhetoric has any
real consequences. Yet again, conservatives find themselves arguing
strenuously against observable reality.
For example, if words don't matter, how do they explain the THREE HUNDRED AND NINE BILLION DOLLARS spent on adverting in the US last year? Obviously words do matter. Obviously words can and do move people to action. Obviously their denials are disingenuous, at best.
But in private, some Republican leaders do acknowledge that the poisonous rhetoric that's become a trademark of the GOP, the Tea Party, right wing ;talk radio and FOXNews, together known as the conservative noise machine, bears at least some responsibility for the Tucson massacre.
Nineteen people were shot at a town hall type event held at a local Tucson grocery store, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ). Six of the nineteen ;are dead, including respected federal judge John Roll, Giffords aide Gabriel Zimmerman and a nine year old girl, are dead. Giffords, who was shot in the head, is in critical condition and fighting for her life. Doctors say her prognosis is uncertain.
The shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, 22, is in custody and has been charged with multiple murders and attempted murders. Rambling, incoherent YouTube videosand postings to his MySpace page paint a picture of an unattained young man agitated by right wing political rhetoric.
In private, senior Republicans admit that the incendiary right wing violent rhetoric from right wing political leaders and talking heads amplified and disseminated by the right wing noise machine and echo chamber is at least in part responsible for the growing list of right wing domestic political terrorism. From Politico...
Is it about time you and the Tea Party simmer down your retoric your not the only Amercian in this country. My family lost may members from the Right Spanish Fascist party and we see it happing here in Amercia which is sad. My family always loved Amercia thats why we moved here. This is a electrolysis website not a platform for the Tea Party please take your retoric to a polical website and let Amercia live.

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#81768 - 01/11/11 05:42 AM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: dfahey]
Basquelady Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/10
Posts: 4
(Come on,try to be more positive fo a change?) The attempted assassination of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 9 year old child is the postive change . For a nurse you appear not to have any compasion for life.

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#81776 - 01/11/11 07:52 AM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: Basquelady]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I deleted my response to LAgirl. The floor is all yours, basquelady. Please continue as you wish.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

Top
#81810 - 01/12/11 11:52 PM Re: Plucking by Governments and The Medical Industry [Re: Basquelady]
depilacionelectr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Basquelady
My family lost may members from the Right Spanish Fascist party and we see it happing here in Amercia which is sad. My family always loved Amercia thats why we moved here. This is a electrolysis website not a platform for the Tea Party please take your retoric to a polical website and let Amercia live.


It is a luck that your family could escape of the tyranny of the dictator, others did not have so much luck. Many children (between them my father, a posthumous son) remained orphans because a shot closed the mouth of his father forever (he did not want to leave his pregnant wife). The only crime committed by my grandfather was to belong to an union and to defend some fundamental rights as the right to express his ideas.

40 years of silence it is a lot of time for any people. The whole world should have right to express his ideas, opinions or thoughts, including Dee or LAgirl, without being afraid to a shot ..... or to a few words of reproach.

My condolences to the citizens American for the death of the victims of the gunfire.

NOTE: That popular phrase said by our monarch:"¿PORQUÉ NO TE CALLAS?". It was an enterteining anecdote, but please Basquelady, not to follow the example.

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