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#87932 - 05/29/11 03:57 PM Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations
Michael Bono Online

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3184
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
It’s a common error in logic that we all do, i.e., going from a “specific” to a “general.” I see this persistently on this bog. Well, everywhere too. It gets my few remaining hormones all fired up!

Statements such as “Well, everyone in London knows that the (fill in the blank) method is not as effective.” “The (fill in the blank) method is less painful.” “The (fill in the blank) method is much faster — I’d only go there.” If I had any hair left (it’s all been removed by electrolysis), I’d be pulling it out. Okay, I have ONE hair left on my back.

Years ago, when I was doing a lot of work in Europe, nobody believed I was American! In a few of my earlier classes, people were listening hard to detect my “accent.” I had a Frenchman talk to me on a street in Antwerp. I told him I don’t speak French and was American. He said: “You are a liar; you are French, and you should not be ashamed of your nationality.” Madonna Mia!

What the Europeans told me? I was too thin, too well-dressed (I never wore athletic shoes), too thoughtful (?), and too soft-spoken! YIKES!! I don’t know, maybe this was a compliment? Americans, (like Germans), are universally disliked by — well — everybody! (And, that’s a preconceived notion too! See?)

For the Europeans who thought they knew what Americans were like, I would say … all 300 million of us? Well, which Americans: The American natives? The Creoles in Louisiana? The farmer in Iowa? The drag-queen in Hollywood? The investment banker in New York City? The Hawaiian cowboy on the Big Island?

The point is: preconceived notions are not very scientific — or accurate. If you have one or two experiences with (fill in the blank) you cannot therefore generalize and make sweeping “factual statements.” Well, you can, but the statement is only your limited experience — not fact.

In the field of hair removal there is little empirical scientific data. Is there any at all? And, that’s why blogs like this saunter on and on. The frustration for me, personally, is that I would welcome being part of an actual study. I have several friends in Santa Barbara using lasers and I have repeatedly challenged them — no takers! I would be happy to go “head to head” with various (any) electrolysis methods too. So far, no takers.

And, that’s my morning perspective. But think about it: if you have only scant experience you cannot castigate or make serious comments on, well, anything. Can you? Opinions based on limited first-hand or second-hand experience? Where’s the data?

Note: I’m often told that a study on various methods is impossible because there are too many variables. I don’t buy that at all! Just factor in the variables. Anything can be studied scientifically — it’s a process not a destination.

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#87935 - 05/29/11 04:18 PM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: Michael Bono]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1806
Loc: London, UK
I feel like you're talking to me Michael, because I have said similar things.

You say scant experience. Do you know how rare finding an electrologist is in London? It's like finding a needle in a haystack.

Anyway, all I know is, both me and my sister have had treatment with who we feel are the better electrologists in London, after extensive searching. So we do know first hand how effective the treatment is with both blend and thermolysis. Why would I go with any electrologist (this or others) who does not feel telogen hairs can be treated or says an individual follicle may need multiple zaps over the course of the treatment before it's killed for good? I'm just going to be spending more money in the long run, money I don't have.

My aunt is having her chin done elsewhere. 3 hairs a minute with blend. Doesn't matter that it's slow as long as it's effective. 1 year on, a slight difference has been made (she has been going very regularly, almost weekly) but I can bet you any money if you, Dee, James, anyone of the electrologists that posts on Hairtell were treating her, she'd be close to done.

Michael, you are not the average electrologist most of us come in contact with. No comparison in my mind.

People generally want their work done with a number of priorities, speed, cost effectiveness, skin reaction. If an option further a field exists which fulfils these, then it's natural that they would take this option.

Also, the fact is, people come here looking for recommendations and first hand experiences, so that's what members give them.

I've spent 3 years, since joining these forums, giving electrolysis here 'a go'. I'm not too impressed. Yes, I've had small areas completed but I feel I've spent too much on them. Maybe others have different experiences but there are a host of London based members on this forum and more or less all I have spoken to have come to the same conclusion. A common complaint is the lack of vision equipment the electrologists are using.
_________________________
31/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to date, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#87940 - 05/29/11 04:43 PM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
Michael Bono Online

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3184
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Oh my, I just picked London randomly. I sincerely did not "target" anyone. I'm actually targeting all of us — self included! (Actually, I am pretty average as far as skill. I just have a “bigger mouth.” You know: a REAL American?)

My GOD … it is so frustrating for the patient — originally I was a patient too, and I understand. All your parameters are “spot on.” What are the meaningful (only) parameters, in my opinion?

1) Will the skin be left in perfect condition after the procedure. And, I mean perfect.
2) How many total hours will the procedure take? (Forget counting hairs per minute.)
3) How much will this cost?

Any practitioner who has been in business for 10+ years actually does know these answers: it’s in their records. They only need to do some computations and divulge these data to their prospective patients. It’s called “Standards of Practice.”

BTW. It’s wonderful to be able to talk with you — WAY over there in the UK!

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#87941 - 05/29/11 04:52 PM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
depilacionelectr
Unregistered


I have many difficulties in interpreting the texts in English, but I think that Michael is not talking about different modalities of Electrolysis.

I agree on one thing, we should not generalize. A Blend with the same machine, the same parameters, the same size and type of needle, the same technique can have different results if the hands that work are different. I fully understand one of the claims of Michael, he knows exactly how to make a follicle is destroyed for ever in the first insertion. This is something that an experienced electrologist knows for sure. He often speaks of the power to predict the results, this is something that only electrologist who knows what he is doing can be known.

Hopefully there is a laser expert who offered to do this comparative study. At this point I need not say that Michael is well aware that any form (blend, slow thermolysis or Flash) can kill a follicle from the first time.

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#87942 - 05/29/11 04:54 PM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: Michael Bono]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1806
Loc: London, UK
I can't believe you on that. When I thought, some time back, that I would like to learn electrolysis myself (being so fed up with the options here) I was quickly referred to your book "The Blend Method". So to me, it's a great privilege to have you posting here and I cannot believe you for a second if you say you're 'average' :p

The practitioners do know these answers. What myself and others have found is you then get comments like "That area is too large to treat, try Laser instead", "There's no point treating those hairs, they are too small (read: my inferior vision equipment is holding me back)". A very self limiting state of mind exists.
_________________________
31/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to date, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#87958 - 05/29/11 08:28 PM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9611
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
You got it, stoppit.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#88038 - 06/01/11 09:39 AM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: dfahey]
geri Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 77
Loc: London,UK
Hello everyone,

I hope you don't mind me barging in, but I think I have an interesting point of view I can offer that may make things clearer when it comes to electrologists in the UK.
I've been in this industry for 7 yrs now and I understand very well stoppit's frustration. LHR is so popular here because the electrolysis school of thought is so stuck in its old ways that most electrologists simply don't know any different. And it is not all their fault - that's how they have been thought in the best beauty schools. If they don't come to this forum, they probably will never find out there are so many advances in the electrology practice that can make their life so much easier, their work so much more efficient and their clients so much happier for achieving the results they want quicker, cheaper and with a lot less skin damage.
The problem starts in the education system where beauty therapist wanna-be's find out they have to study electrolysis to get their full beauty qualification and that's really not what they are after. Most hope once they pass their exam they will never have to do it again. Later starting a job and having the qualification they get pushed into doing electrolysis by their employers. But there are very few that develop passion for electrolysis and want to learn more.
I don't want to generalise here, Michael, but that's the reality. I've seen it a lot as I used to teach electrolysis in a world famous college. The next problem is that in the process of studying most time is spent to teach new practitioners how to pass their exam rather than different techniques and schools of thought.
Thank God, there are girls who develop interest in electrolysis and try and further their knowledge and skills by attending BIAE or Sterex' courses. But compared to the American system we are so far behind, it's unbelievable.
I am glad I found this forum very early on, because I learned a lot more from here than I learned in school or at BIAE. And I am still learning every day. And my passion for electrolysis still lives in this way. I would love it to be a part of a community like this one here in the UK. I know there are a few electrologists here with open minds and it would be great if we could get together and organise meetings and share our experience. The next generations of electrologists in the UK then might have a better chance at bringing electrolysis its former glory, especially since the Laser and IPL industry is at the moment deregulated and anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can buy a machine and start lasering people. I can write on this subject for weeks... but I won't.
I hope one day I would be able to visit the US to learn from Michael and from James and from others offering different approaches to electrolysis. Since Beata and Josefa are much closer... I might one day try and organise a small European meeting...

Thank you to everyone that shares their experience here!
I know many people read it and learn from it, although shy to participate (me, included).

I want to make one thing very clear: I don't mean to attack or blame anyone with this post. I am barelly trying to expose what can we attempt to change to serve better our clients here in the UK.
_________________________
Geri Panayotova
Electrologist

www.electrolysis4hairremoval.co.uk

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#88040 - 06/01/11 01:04 PM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: geri]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9611
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I think you may have communicated some real life points here that explains things well and your efforts to align with others that are open minded and passionate about hair removal is worth a go. Networking will save us. The new technology is very helpful, but it takes an open mind and a different approach. It takes helping each other and not keeping secrets about what you know.

The others you didn't mention who contribute to this forum, Christine, Sahar, Barbara, Arlene and myself mentor and share with each other in this open forum and in private. We all use the same epilator (27 megahertz technology) so that makes it easier to move forward and share. All this comes about because consumers have the advantage of telling us their likes and dislikes through the full view on the internet, especially so, on this forum, complete with pictures. How can we ignore their pleas for better care?

You are paying attention and if you can get some connections going with other passionate, open minded electrologists in Europe like Beate and Jossie, you will serve the hair consumer well, and thus, your life will also be better for it.

Welcome to hairtell and don't be a stranger. We'd love to hear from you often.

Dee
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#88068 - 06/01/11 10:00 PM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: dfahey]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1806
Loc: London, UK
Hi geri, it's great to have an electrologist's point of view on this.

My electrologist seems to feel the same way but at the same time she's not prepared to break away from where she is working and advance. I can understand it, she is always busy, she has a lot of clients, why risk that?

I mentioned here once that I believe you are 'good to go' after the electrolysis module of the NVQ.. which is hardly anything. Is this true?

I really wish the BIAE would organise seminars. I know the registered electrologists get together. My electrologist and her colleagues recently (last year) went to a Sterex course and bought SX-B's. Wouldn't it be great if the BIAE could organise a seminar for the members with presentations from Dectro, electrologists who are doing 'advanced' work; the use of local anaestehtic (which I personally have not heard of any one using here yet), or even things the Laurier probe which is making an impression on Hairtell right now?
_________________________
31/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to date, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

Top
#88091 - 06/02/11 07:33 AM Re: Converse Fallacy or Hasty Generalizations [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
geri Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 77
Loc: London,UK
Hi stoppit,
The law in the uk regarding emla is different, but in the clinic where I work, we use it, and a couple of years ago, when I was working privatelly, I found a way around the law. If clients convince their gp about getting prescription, they can purchase it in boots and use it prior treatments. One can only buy it on prescription in the uk though. However, if one travels frequently to some other european countries like Greece, it is available over the counter there. To be honest with you, my clients like the freezing air blower much better compared to emla. It does mean settings need agjusting amd insertions are more difficult since arrector pilli muscle contracts, and my fingers freeze after a while, but its cheap....
I've got to rush to work but I'll finish this tonight.
_________________________
Geri Panayotova
Electrologist

www.electrolysis4hairremoval.co.uk

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