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#88132 - 06/03/11 07:39 AM Thanks for the tips
JohnSheff Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 67
I am sort of an old hand with LHR, I started in 2002 and have had 7 sessions on my back with the Lightsheer diode, starting at 30J and raising to 38 at the end.

Although it is better, its still not right, so reading this forum I now have a new treatment booked in for the 11th with the Gentlelase. I got the nurse to do my test patch at 16,18,20 @ 18 spot size and she says she is happy to do any of these. So Ive said 20!

I do have one question, when i was having lightsheer I used to shave my hair very close with a beard trimmer which obviously leaves a little bit of hair sticking out for them to see where to zap (we still often had lines of hair missed). The nurse is saying shave smooth with a razor the day before. When I mentioned this she said they treat the area and not the hair.

Im toying with the idea of taking a picture before I shave, in the hope they can see where they need to hit. As some of my hair is kinda on the sides rather than the back and probably easily missed.

Any thoughts from the experts?


Edited by JohnSheff (06/03/11 07:40 AM)

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#88136 - 06/03/11 03:48 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: JohnSheff]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
We recommend shaving 1-2 days prior so that there is just a bit of stubble visible and easy for them to see where to treat.

Can you post photos? Is your hair still coarse enough for laser?

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#88427 - 06/08/11 07:39 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: LAgirl]
JohnSheff Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 67
Sorry for the slow reply, I thought the forum would e-mail me when someone replied.

Here is my now picture.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/backtoday.jpg/

and here is my then picture from 2000

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/back2000.jpg/

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#88432 - 06/08/11 08:54 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: JohnSheff]
JMISR Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 254
Loc: Seattle, USA
Thanks for the photos.

Although prominently noticeable, your hair is not very dark or uniformly coarse.

You could try GentleLASE with the highest settings, but you will still need electrolysis soon (in my opinion). Given that you already had 7 treatments with decent LightSheer settings, if it were me I would head straight for electrolysis, preferably flash thermolysis.

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#88468 - 06/09/11 03:08 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: JMISR]
LAgirl Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 9994
Loc: New York, NY
Most of your hair is not coarse enough. You may get some minimal results, but it would probably be more cost-effective to go straight for electrolysis. This area is also prone to induced growth, which I wouldn't want to risk with laser.

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#88472 - 06/09/11 05:10 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: LAgirl]
JohnSheff Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 67
Im going for gentlelase on 20J.

I wish your induced growth theory was true LAgirl, if so Id be having it done on my head lol What is the science for thinking that a treatment to destroy follicles can make new growth?

How long would you imagine it would take electrolysis to treat an area as large as a mans back, shoulders and upper arms? I suspect far far too long.

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#88473 - 06/09/11 05:31 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: JohnSheff]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, UK
John, it is true. If you spend long enough of these forums you will see many reports from women who have experienced this on their faces, or men who have experienced this on their upper arms, shoulders or upper backs. I had my hands treated with laser (knowing the risk) and now my little fingers have some hairs growing right on the outer sides. I'll take a photo one day. Even an electrologist told me it was weird to have hair there. Otherwise, laser worked great for me in the areas where my hair was coarse and dark.

Or just google "Paradoxical Hypertrichosis after Laser Epilation"

Every body area is different. Some areas can experience induced growth, whilst other's won't.

IMO, your hair is not coarse enough. But go for it if you want to. It's your money. We're only offering advice. Not sure why we would want to dissuade you from something that will work.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#88476 - 06/09/11 06:49 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
JohnSheff Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 67
Oh I know it doesnt work well, but it does work in a fashion. If it worked well, I wouldnt be here 8 years later trying again for more reduction.

I did google it before your post, and saw that only 3 out of 489 patients experienced it. All type IV skin types of which you also are. Im type II.

I had my hands done too, they are 60% better. I think its safe to say that the hair on my hands was less coarse then, than the hair on my back now.

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#88478 - 06/09/11 07:10 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: JohnSheff]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, UK
If it worked well, you wouldn't be back at all.

Even if you don't experience induced growth, it doesn't mean you can remove all that hair with a laser.

An individual hair needs to be thick enough and dark enough to absorb enough of the laser energy to produce heat in the follicle to destroy the appropriate cells. You can either max out at machine settings or max out at what your skin can handle without burning you, and still the hairs will not absorb sufficient energy. I suspect you can get some further results with an Alex laser but probably not enough to justify the cost if you compare with electrolysis.

Anyway, if the only point you wanted advice on what the perimeter, you can not shave the perimeter area. The tech should be marking the area and diving it up into boxes with a red or white pencil anyway, to avoid missed spots. My tech would mark it out and then shave the bits I left immediately prior to treatment.

Do let us know how much more of the hair you manage to remove with laser.
_________________________
34/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to Nov 2013, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#88483 - 06/09/11 07:45 PM Re: Thanks for the tips [Re: JohnSheff]
JMISR Offline
Top 20 Contributor

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 254
Loc: Seattle, USA
1) I'm an MD PhD with lots of LHR experience.

Induced growth, unfortunately, does happen and is a real concern. Since you are interested, the science is relatively simple to understand. Fine and light hairs lack enough chromophore (melanin) to absorb sufficient EM radiation emitted by the laser. Not enough heat is generated to disable the follicles. Instead, the small amount of energy stimulates production of growth. Induced growth can also occur when poor settings and technique are used by the laser operator. If you aren't convinced, perhaps I should dig around for some photos from previous patients. Tons of testimonies abound on the forums.

2) Not sure what you mean by 3 out of 489 patients experienced it. Are you referencing a study? More than 489 people have received LHR in the world... Not enough info. A few studies have examined paradoxical induced growth. If you want those, I can forward them to you. In any case, not a lot of clinical research is available on the topic. Compared to maladies like cancer or diabetes, induced growth from LHR is (rightfully) low on the funding pecking order.

3) Skin type is irrelevant to induced growth. If the hair is coarse and dark, types IV and above can get reduction with Nd:YAG treatments. Induced growth is a function of hair type and laser settings.

4) As mentioned, we're trying to help you. We have years of experience with this. Ultimately, this is YOUR hair, YOUR money, and YOUR time.

5) If you find an electrologist offering flash thermolysis, preferably MicroFlash or PicoFlash, the treatments are relatively quick. Your average electrologist, however, can remove about 5-10 hairs per minute. Since hair growth occurs in cycles, you can get a rough estimate of the total time and cost. Electrolysis is permanent, however. If you get full clearances, you can be FREE of all your hair in 9-18 months.


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