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#106910 - 05/15/13 04:04 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9542
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
LAgirl, you may want to add some or all of Mickey's four points to your Laser FAQ's page. Mickey, have you perused LA's FAQ's yet?
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#106913 - 05/15/13 04:18 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Dee,

I don't accept the term "paradoxical" hair growth, or laser induced hair stimulation because it makes it sound mysterious.

The laser is doing it's job. It is shocking non-anagen hairs into anagen, and vellus hairs are becoming terminal. This is normal, though not always desirable. It IS, however, VERY important that the patient follow up with a trained PHYSICIAN if they experience new growth. Preferably a dermatologist.

I have left messages for Dr. Shapiro, and Dr. Rivers (co-authors in the paradoxical hair growth "study") and they should be calling me back. Hopefully we can get some information from them after 8 years more experience after their study.

As for the gentleman who messaged you, his statements make clear WHY this is not being treated properly.

First of all, he says he started with very light hairs on his back and shoulders. How light? Were they too light to treat to begin with???

Let's assume they were treatable. What laser was used? I would use nothing less than an 18mm 755nm laser for "light" hair on the back and shoulders- REGARDLESS of skin type (for very dark skin I would use a laser that gets more than 300ms pulse width, but very light hair rarely translates to very dark skin).

And how far apart were the intervals? He says he did 7 sessions? How old is he???

There is a rule of thumb with follow up treatments... well, two.

1- Treat again at half the telogen cycle. So if the telogen cycle of back and shoulder hair is 6-9 months, treatments (after the first) should be spaced out at least 3 to 4.5 months apart.

2- Treat when visible hair makes its reappearance.

With either rule, 7 sessions on the back and shoulders would span at minimum 18 months, and as much as 4.5 years.

The biggest problem with using the second rule of thumb is ejection. Telogen hair will be naturally ejected within days of laser hair removal (or you can pluck it out as I do). Anagen hair should eject some time after that as it is deeper down the shaft. In any case, not all "new hair growth" is actually new hair, and if treatment is delivered... say, one month after the first treatment (on the back) you may be treating hair that appears to be growing, but is still being ejected while the true hair is beneath it pushing it out.
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#106917 - 05/15/13 04:35 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9542
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I am beginning to understand you better. You see, it is very important that you are here teaching us (patiently so) because WE want to guide people in an unbiased approach. We are on the frontline, seeing clients who come complaining about their half-baked laser experience. I want to emphasize that we also hear and observe the excellent laser results as well.

We can better calm and educate the disenchanted laser client if we understand some very basic principles of laser hair reduction.

This is a consumer-driven website and the integrity of this site must be truth-based and unbiased as we support, guide, comfort and teach the distraught, depressed hairy client. That is why I hang out here - for free. If it were anything but truthful and unbiased, I would be gone, "quick! like a bunny!".

Thank you again for adding your expertise. We can never be too balanced or transparent (unlike the US government) . Just threw that in to stir up some people.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#106918 - 05/15/13 04:38 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
stoppit&tidyup Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 1800
Loc: London, UK
Mickey,

I think you will find that from a consumer's perspective, vellus hairs (or any fine hair for that matter) becoming thicker or darker is undesirable.

I joined HairTell as a consumer and at the time was attending consultations at Laser clinics to make an informed decision. I decided not to undergo LHR for my fine, downy (but black) facial hair because of the risk of these hairs becoming thicker. This defeated the purpose of permanent hair removal treatments for me.

I instead decided to proceed in areas where I had coarse hair only.

One thing I don't quite understand - not all fine hair is vellus. What do you say only fine vellus hair can be 'stimulated'? What if a fine terminal hair receives sublethal damage in the follicle?

I know you refuse 'hearsay' but my cousin has experienced LHR to cause her previously fine lower arm hair to become thicker and darker. For me, this is a first hand account, though for you it is 'third party'. How has this happened? I am willing to see if she will discuss her experience with you. As a medical professional, I'm sure she will be able to get all the required details from her clinic - she has said they have been very 'good' about what has happened and are trying to resolve it. They may even be interested in your help and advice.
_________________________
31/F/UK
Laser for reduction on Underarms, Bikini, Full Legs & 3/4 Arms. Skin type IV
Electrolysis - Further details in: My sister's electrolysis diary
[27hrs of Blend, April 2008-Dec 2010 in UK, for coarse hair on lower sideburns, coarse chin hair, completed upper lip, shaped eyebrows]
[Sept 2011 to date, once yearly sessions with Josefa. Completed reduction of facial/neck fuzz in approx 27 hrs TTT]

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#106919 - 05/15/13 04:46 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Dee, I appreciate your patience with me smile

And I am always open to correction! Beate_r pointed out some contradictions in my arguments others had missed, and I believe that correction finally got my point across to some wink

I would still like to have a definitive answer on this question of thicker hair growth after laser hair removal. I am already seeing a trend not only in skin and hair type- but laser type as well. Alexandrite is not only poorly understood by many practitioners- most Alexandrite lasers are not adequately powered to begin with, and for some strange reason they are being used at unusually low treatment settings :-/

I hope you all don't mind emoticons... I have been accused of using them more than 95% of the population. I don't like my "tone" to be misunderstood, so if something sounds emotionally ambiguous, I put a smile next to it smile
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#106920 - 05/15/13 05:00 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
beate_r Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 879
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
Originally Posted By: CRC Biomedical
..., and for some strange reason they are being used at unusually low treatment settings


Not only these.
_________________________
Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#106922 - 05/15/13 05:12 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: stoppit&tidyup]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Originally Posted By: stoppit&tidyup
I think you will find that from a consumer's perspective, vellus hairs (or any fine hair for that matter) becoming thicker or darker is undesirable.


Yes, in your case- on the face, very undesirable. BUT this is a sign of deficiency in treatment- not 'normal' treatment. Also, some vellus hair may need to become thicker before laser hair removal can be performed. I haven't read any comments from consumers regarding correction of new growth, but the main study which documents it was written by doctors who now say it can be treated.

Originally Posted By: stoppit&tidyup
One thing I don't quite understand - not all fine hair is vellus. What do you say only fine vellus hair can be 'stimulated'? What if a fine terminal hair receives sublethal damage in the follicle?


It has only been proven that fine terminal hair can receive lethal damage, or sublethal damage and miniaturization. If it is terminal, it will become fine until it no longer reacts to treatment, or it will eventually receive a lethal treatment. Fine terminal hair- especially dark hair- should react to laser hair removal given the proper settings. But think about it- if it is "stimulated," and grows back thicker- why wouldn't it react to laser THEN? (not that I agree with the notion of terminal hair growing back thicker after hair removal... unless the person was experiencing some form of telogen efflevium, and the deficient treatment amounts to Low Level Light Therapy, inducing a natural growth cycle.

Originally Posted By: stoppit&tidyup
How has this happened?


The two known mechanisms of laser hair removal are sublethal injury to the bulge, or lethal injury to the bulge and bulb. Laser shocks telogen hair into anagen by sublethal injury to the bulge. Laser removes anagen hair by lethal injury to the bulge and bulb. Laser may shock vellus hair into becoming terminal, but other factors are more likely. Laser may shock hair in extended telogen, or telogen efflevium back into anagen.

The most likely cause, and I know this is the one most people will disagree with, is synchronicity- after the first treatment, most of the hairs treated will be in anagen synchronously while, for example in the arm, hairs are usually 20% anagen to 80% telogen. About 95% will be anagen synchronously after the first treatment.

There are tons of other conditions which cause hypertrichosis, and hirsutism. This is why I recommend seeing a dermatologist if this occurs.

Originally Posted By: stoppit&tidyup
They may even be interested in your help and advice.


I would be more than willing to give it. Hopefully the problem is not an underpowered laser :-/

Though not many people complain about that- how do you think I make MY money? smile Underpowered, poorly serviced, broken down lasers...
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#106923 - 05/15/13 05:21 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9542
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Emoticons are great. mad

Low settings are a problem. We have said many times (LAGirl more than anyone here) that a large spot size and aggressive settings are better. Not aggressive in the sense to burn someone though, but delivering as much energy as the skin can take. We like alexandrites like GentleLase and Yags like GentleYag's. Other types are mentioned, but I don't remember them right now. IPL's are viewed as long term waxing around here and we usually steer people toward "real lasers".

If any of that information is unfair, it was not done with any selfish or competitive motive. This is why I have been asking laser specialists for the last year or so if they could help answer some questions or correct any information here on the forum. We have been doing the best we can, but we don't have the caliber of laser specialists like we do electrologists on this forum
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#106924 - 05/15/13 05:30 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
No no no... I agree completely.

18mm spot sizes are the only ones which deliver 100% energy at 100% area of coverage at the target depth of the deepest follicles.

For clarity- I am not being biased. I chose this company after doing much research: I am a distributor and service partner for Light Age, Inc.

With that said, the only lasers with 18mm spot sizes are:

Candela GentleLase (755nm)
Candela GentleMax (755nm/1064nm)
Candela GentleYag (1064nm)
Light Age EpiCare Duo (755nm/1064nm)
Light Age EpiCare Yag (1064nm)
Light Age EpiCare LPX (755nm)
Light Age EpiCare LP (755nm)

Next in line would be the Cynosure Apogee/Acclaim/Elite series which have a 15mm max spot size at both wavelengths, but that only covers 69% of the total area covered by an 18mm spot size.

I never recommend IPLs. It's like offering someone cheap mezcal when they ordered premium blue agave tequila wink Yea, it'll get you drunk... but is it worth it?
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

Top
#106925 - 05/15/13 05:45 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9542
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Originally Posted By: CRC Biomedical
Dee,

.........

I have left messages for Dr. Shapiro, and Dr. Rivers (co-authors in the paradoxical hair growth "study") and they should be calling me back. Hopefully we can get some information from them after 8 years more experience after their study............



This is very exciting! I am anxious to hear what they say. Can you ask them to make a statement here?
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Top
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