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#106844 - 05/14/13 04:33 AM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9523
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I posted that link earlier, but thank you sweet Brenton for doing that again.

Mickey, please offer your feedback on how that can be improved? When someone posts about having more hair than when they started LHR, I try to copy and paste on that thread. Very crude, I know, but many times, the consumer can't report parameters, something I know you would like as a scientist.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#106845 - 05/14/13 04:44 AM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Thanks Dee. I'll review some of these tomorrow, and I'll get some feedback from estheticians, doctors, and scientists I chat with regularly. Just by quickly browsing the forum, a slight trend did stand out to me... though I wouldn't have expected the GentleLase to be an issue- not the Mini anyhow. It has an 18mm spot size. Granted, nobody claimed to have had that spot size used, but 18mm is the only spot size for any laser hair removal (this, or larger) that provides 100% depth penetration of energy to the follicle bulb. A 10mm hand piece, for instance, which is the most commonly used spot size for the most common hair removal laser (the Cutera Vantage/Excel/Xeo line of lasers) does not provide 10mm of coverage at follicle depth. Low energies on smaller spot sizes will cause sublethal injury to the follicles. Sublethal injury to vellus hair may explain why it would go anagen.
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#106846 - 05/14/13 05:00 AM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9523
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Great information!

Let me know how or if we can be useful and more accurate in obtaining consumer information about laser hair reduction.

We have very few laser specialists and experts that post here on a regular basis, so we do the best we can to comfort the hairy when they come here with their concerns about laser reduction.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#106871 - 05/14/13 06:55 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
mhawkes Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 186
Loc: oban scotland uk
Glad to see CRC is going to contact the providers of laser to get some feedback about PLHS. As prior to going to Australia in 1998 I hadn't seen this type of hair growth before, as laser became more affordable so too being presented with this type of growth pattern.
Majority of clients are not going to complain they will quietly try and find something else that they hope will work. Most are incredibly embarrassed the last thing they want to do is draw extra attention to their unwanted hair.
Also I've never met a Dr or dermatologist that actually performs hair removal usual someone else is employed to do this.
It would be fantastic to get clearer guidelines with laser, and I know the same can be said for electrolysis that's why this forum is so good to let the public know what results should be expected.
_________________________
mairi hawkes D.R.E. Apilus Platinum. Trained and worked in Uk and Australia
Member of the British Institute and Association of Electrolysis since 1993
Fully licensed by Argyll and Bute Council UK.
www.aeclinic.co.uk

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#106872 - 05/14/13 09:06 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: mhawkes]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Dee, and others- the most important things, you probably already know, but I will add a few caveats that I hope are available... in any case, this is information I will be gathering from my own customers and other sources... I would recommend consumers keep track of the following as well:

1- Skin type can be relative, so pictures are much better. It would be much better, and more scientific if we had clear photos of the area being treated before, and the same area after. Close up would be nice- so as to be able to clearly see the hair color and thickness.

2- Complete treatment parameters including Energy/cm2, pulse width, repetition rate, cooling method, spot size, and number of passes (if more than one).

3- HIGHLY DESIRABLE- Proof of accurate energy output from laser/IPL source- company name, technician name, and date of service within the last 6 months are of the utmost importance. Any medspa who uses third party service should be able to get this info from the company if they do not already have it themselves.

4- Make, and model of laser, date of manufacture, and software revision- this will give a more clear indication of the particular system's capabilities.

After reading a few posts I have a few suspicions. One is a problem I encounter nearly every day with my customers. Whenever I walk in, most of the time there are people in the waiting room. Usually a certain type of customer is attracted to a particular medspa- I usually see similar skin types at specific medspas. I'm sure most of you will recognize this observation as not "racial" in nature, rather it has a lot to do with equipment, and the experience of the practitioners themselves as well as their marketing, and word of mouth.

In any case, I usually see darker skin types at locations with Yag lasers only, for example. I see lighter skin types in rural areas. I see mixed skin types in sunny locations like Florida, or Southern California, etc. In any case, I gauge who should be more of an expert on what skin type, and I ask questions.

One trend that I see among technicians of all backgrounds, and with customers of all skin types is unusually low treatment parameters. For example, if I go to one of my customers, who has a predominantly Eastern Asian, Latin American, and African American customer base, and I ask her- "For skin type 5, what would you set your Cutera Xeo to?" and she'll say "Oh I use 35/35. That works about 90% of the time."

I know from personal experience that 35/35 is reliable, efficient, and relatively painless (for it's efficacy) for skin type 5 (though I'm probably more between 4-5). In fact, I've gone 25/25, and though it is painful- it is the most efficient setting I've found for my skin type using an Nd:Yag laser with a 10mm spot size.

Most other customers will give me numbers like 20/35... 15/25, etc. THEN they tell me they have problems with darker skin types not achieving good results, or experiencing too much pain!

Now, when I say "painful" please keep in mind that when I play with lasers I use no protection. That is, the only cooling I use when testing a device on myself is any built in cooling mechanism. If it doesn't have one, I don't use any. So if 25/25 is bearable with little to no cooling, it should be more than efficient with appropriate cooling.

But I digress... the point I'm trying to make is that I have seen a trend of unusually low settings. I know what the settings SHOULD be because I, as many of you have pointed out, am not an esthetician- so all I have to go by is manufacturer literature, clinical nurses, scientists, etc. I always recommend these settings to my customers, and ask them not to deviate from them as they take on the liability of experimentation rather than leaving the liability with the manufacturer whom designed the machine to work a certain way.

I believe if we try to keep track of this information we may be able to have our own scientific assessment. I know it seems tedious, but it's probably well worth it. I don't support laser hair removal because I make money selling lasers or repairing them- I support laser hair removal because it is a technology I feel has been misunderstood by practitioners, manufacturers, consumers, the government, service companies, and licensing bodies alike. My background is running and servicing medical equipment management plans in large hospitals. I have been responsible for angio/cath labs that cost upwards of $2 million, and tens of thousands per repair. I've helped administer multi-million dollar contracts involving the purchase of new equipment, and part of my path to those responsibilities has entailed learning how to assess problem issues, document them, and correct them based on statistical data. I hope you all understand where I'm coming from wink
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#106886 - 05/15/13 02:26 AM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
Lkjhgf Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/13
Posts: 9
I got laser on my back and shoulders. They were very light hairs. I did 7 sessions and all I got was longer darker hair. Throughout the laser process only patches were growing back and I thought it was working and a few months after I stopped it all grew back. Laser ruined it for me

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#106892 - 05/15/13 07:35 AM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: Lkjhgf]
electrolysislady Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 131
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
CRC

Thank you for your informative posts.

There have been numerous posts on this forum indicating people are not getting good results with the Soprano XL, I have been using this machine since 2009 and have had very good results. I suspect that these individuals are being under treated. The manufacturer recommends 5 to 8 kJ of accumulative energy for a 100 cm square area in the SHR mode


Do you have any experience with the Soprano XL? If so, what are your thoughts?
_________________________
Carmella Hammond, CPHI(C), Certified Electrologist, CPE, Laser Technician
electrolysislady@hotmail.com
Visit North London Electrolysis and Laser website



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#106897 - 05/15/13 12:02 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: electrolysislady]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9523
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
We have a LASER SUCCUSS STORY THREAD here on Hairtell.

It would be so helpful Carmella if you would direct your successful cases to that thread to tell their story. We want to hear good news and the more detail there is the better for hair consumers.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#106906 - 05/15/13 03:16 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: dfahey]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Carmella,

I guess we should move that question to another thread wink
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#106908 - 05/15/13 03:49 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9523
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Mickey,

I just added your four points to the REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION thread.

It looks like this now:
____________________________________





For ease, You can copy and paste the information below so as to give complete information:

Gender:

Age:

Date you started treatment:

Hair color:

Color of Skin (Skin type can be relative, so pictures are much better. It would be much better, and more scientific if we had clear photos of the area being treated before, and the same area after. Close up would be nice- so as to be able to clearly see the hair color and thickness):

Hair Structure:

Area(s) treated:

Name of LASER or IPL (Make, and model of laser, date of manufacture, and software revision- this will give a more clear indication of the particular system's capabilities.):

Treatment settings (Complete treatment parameters including Energy/cm2, pulse width, repetition rate, cooling method, spot size, and number of passes (if more than one).

Skin reaction:

Shedding?

Did you report increased hair growth to your laser specialist?

Before and After pictures?

***HIGHLY DESIRABLE********

Proof of accurate energy output from laser/IPL source- company name, technician name, and date of service within the last 6 months are of the utmost importance. Any medspa who uses third party service should be able to get this info from the company if they do not already have it themselves.




Other comments - no detail is too small:


_____________________________________________

THANK YOU for your valuable input, Mickey.

I asked a consumer, who private messaged me last night, to post his message on the open forum . It is listed above, but I will paste it here for ease of reading.
______________________________
"#106886 - Yesterday at 09:26 PM Re: Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation [Re: CRC Biomedical]
Lkjhgf
Member

Registered: Fri May 10 2013
Posts: 6
I got laser on my back and shoulders. They were very light hairs. I did 7 sessions and all I got was longer darker hair. Throughout the laser process only patches were growing back and I thought it was working and a few months after I stopped it all grew back. Laser ruined it for me "

_____________________________

Mickey, to help you understand where we are coming from:

These are the kind of posts and pm's we experience here on Hairtell FREQUENTLY. These consumer-driven pleas, along with articles from the medical community, frame the words 'laser induced hair stimulation'. This is not electrologist-driven because we are territorial. We are not worried about competition. We are already over-worked if we are among the ones that are skilled. We sell our time and believe me, there are more hairy people than there is time to sell.

On the AEA Facebook site (the site closed to the public - an electrologist blog only) a survey was taken asking how many hours we work per week. Conclusion: more than is humanly healthy. I don't have my website up and I spend very little to advertise because my referral base is large. I am not unique.

If you think there is a fear of competition happening here, your are sorely mistaken! Both modalities compliment each other and serve the hairy very well. A lot of us do both modalities. I bristled when you stated that electrologists are fearful of laser because of COMPETITION. Please take this as an earnest, polite correction on that point. We have PLENTY of work.

We all want to understand the consumer-driven comments about ending up with more hair than when they started laser. Are there better words to describe this very real phenomenon? What should replace 'laser induced hair stimulation' ?

Thanks,

Dee


Edited by dfahey (05/15/13 04:03 PM)
Edit Reason: Added and corrected typo
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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