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#106999 - 05/17/13 11:45 PM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: dfahey]
Brenton Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 06/09/11
Posts: 721
Loc: SoCal
Perhaps this is pure speculation, but does 7-8 hairs constitute induced growth? A few hairs popping up seems like it could be due to any sort of hormonal change. I would've expected to see a lot more growth if it was "laser induced," but a single digit number of hairs... well, maybe that's just me.

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#107001 - 05/18/13 01:37 AM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: Brenton]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9562
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I don't know. I share the story and others can conclude what they want. There are more questions than answers on this subject.

Maybe stimulation is selective? Maybe some hair follicles are more easily stimulated than others? I'm not a hair biologist. I merely remove the hair and share with this community what my clients share with me. In a way, it doesn't matter to me because my role is to remove the hair permanently and I can certainly do that. On with life......

_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#107002 - 05/18/13 02:37 AM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: dfahey]
Brenton Offline
Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 06/09/11
Posts: 721
Loc: SoCal
Oh yes I understand... I just wanted to post my speculation so others can give weight to my opinion as well. That's all

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#107017 - 05/18/13 10:23 PM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: dfahey]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Originally Posted By: dfahey
Exactly! How are laser practitioners educated? How long does it take? Who teaches the doctors and others to use the laser after they purchase it?


- If a lawyer is incompetent do you ask what school the lawyer went to? It is the responsibility of any professional to truly be a professional in their field.

Originally Posted By: CRC Biomedical
What I don't understand- if her sideburns were to be removed, how did hair on her face and neck grow??? Did she have her face and neck treated? Was she tested for hirsutism, or hyperandrogenism?


Originally Posted By: dfahey
Could the heat have transferred to another location to wake up those hairs? By the way, they never had terminal hairs there before.


This, again, is evidence of your bias Dee. I asked a perfectly viable question regarding hyperandrogenism and hirsutism, and instead of even considering the question- you jump to a completely unrelated hypothesis involving the laser. Why do you dare not consider hormonal issues???

Originally Posted By: dfahey
This is what we hear in many testimonials.


Yes, and you're a nurse... so think like one. If a patient comes to you and says "I have bronchitis" do you treat the patient for bronchitis? How are experts supposed to make any assessments if your standard for expert is anybody who makes a negative claim?

Originally Posted By: dfahey
Could there be that many coincidences that people have something else wrong but grow hair several weeks after light-based treatments?


Let's speak in terms of what we know- she did not say her face was treated. She said she was having her sideburns removed. The location of her new hair growth is not consistent with where she says she had treatment performed. There is no reason, given the evidence as stated by the reporter, to consider laser as the cause other than the client's claim to know for a fact the laser is to blame.
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#107018 - 05/18/13 10:29 PM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: Brenton]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
Originally Posted By: Brenton
Perhaps this is pure speculation, but does 7-8 hairs constitute induced growth? A few hairs popping up seems like it could be due to any sort of hormonal change. I would've expected to see a lot more growth if it was "laser induced," but a single digit number of hairs... well, maybe that's just me.


Brenton, you are very diplomatic in pointing out the obvious. This IS pure speculation. It does not matter what kind of evidence anyone gives to the contrary- the supposition is in place and the information is used to fill in the gaps. What does not agree with the supposition, though it may be answered rationally, is disregarded in favor of speculation which does support the initial supposition.

Every single doctor who has taken part in any of the "studies" cited regarding paradoxical hypertrichosis have made millions performing laser hair removal. The papers themselves don't condemn lasers in the manner speculators do, and most of their conclusions disagree with most of the speculation.
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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#107030 - 05/19/13 07:42 AM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: CRC Biomedical]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9562
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Mickey, I see no evidence that I am being biased. How could I be when I have stated many times, over the years on this site, that I refer my clients who are good candidates to laser and I have observed fantastic results? So, it would be so helpful if you stopped using that tactic.

You appear to be pushing the idea that scientifically speaking, it couldn't possibly be laser that caused increased hair growth , but rather it must be other stimulators (coincidentally) like hyperandrogenism, hirsutism causing this. You are doing exactly what you are saying I am doing... speculating. For all I know, you have a favorable bias toward lasers since you sell and service lasers as your livihood.

It appears to be a strange coincidence that of all the cases that have been reported since 2003 by worried consumers on Hairtell, have the common denominator of observing more hair than when they started after a few or more laser treatments. I don't think we are on the same page, and thus you don't understand what I'm trying to convey because you may not have the real world advantage of closely communicating with real live clients like I do.

I would hope that anyone with a scientific mind should be open to such all possibilities and not poo-poo consumer observations as impossibilities. All electrologists well understand what the list of possibilities are for one having too much hair in the wrong places. Genetics, medications, stress, puberty, pregnancy, menopause, disease...... We are always on the lookout for what could be stimulating hair growth.

Are you excluding the possibility that laser cannot cause more hair in or around an area to grow when many have reported that they never had the extra amount of hair before they started laser? Are you saying that it is just a well-timed coincidence caused by a hormonal happening? Why is there so many well-timed coincidences is my question? Is it only because of practitioner error as you suggested before?

The doctors whom you talked to still stood by their words 'paradoxical laser hair stimulation' when you disagreed with them and you remarked that you were disappointed. Why were you disappointed? It's the practitioner's fault?

I stand by my honest and unbiased parroting of what real life clients/patients report. Am I wrong to think that you are saying lasers did not cause these problems for the client , that just by coincidence their hormonal environment decided to change just when they started LASER HAIR REDUCTION ?

So many questions, I know. My hope is that I was diplomatic enough in my approach to you as a respected professional in your field. If my obtuseness is a problem, I would hope you could explain your points in other words to help me better understand your bottom line. The length of this thread could be a problem in that we have forgotten the original concerns.

_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#107031 - 05/19/13 07:59 AM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: dfahey]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9562
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Oh, I will re-ask another question that I had hoped you would have answered above.

There are probably thousands of people doing laser hair reduction. Since you said "idiotic (laser) practitioners need to stop treating........" , I asked you to describe how long it takes to educate the doctors and technician laser specialists? You diverted with a comment about lawyers. I didn't ask about lawyers. I asked about the type of training and length of training laser specialist go through. Last I heard, in my state of Ohio, training is 50 hours and it is taught in the local electrologist school as part of the curriculum.

You were unhappy about laser being applied incorrectly and called some practitioners idiotic. So, the conclusion would be that problems like increased hair growth after a couple sessions of laser, is caused by human error and if they were using the correct laser at the correct parameters, then there would be no hair stimulation. In turn, there would be no need for a thread on Hairtell entitled, 'REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION '. Thus, my curiosity about how laser specialists are educated. If you choose to answer, that would be most helpful because I really don't know what the standards are for this industry.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

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#107033 - 05/19/13 01:12 PM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: dfahey]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3115
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I’m always happy when I give someone a “hysterical” laugh … nice! (but probably a laugh AT, rather than a laugh WITH?)

Bias? Do people have a bias? The answer is, YES of course … absolutely! Simply being human gives us an inescapable bias in our observations and perceptions of the “universe.” The point is, will your bias make it impossible for you to make objective observations? Will your bias make it impossible for you to (as the “Laser Avenger” says), seek the truth?

TRUTH? Really? Have you gotten to that point?

The laser guy seems to be saying that the Hairtell pros are so biased that they are unable to make objective observations … let alone draw any semblance of a conclusion. Well, at this point I will add in all the adjectives that he’s been using.

Funny thing in this discussion is that, indeed, I have, without equivocation, observed L.I.T. I have not, however, observed “paradoxical hair stimulation.” Sure, I have heard patients and practitioners talk about this (in writings too), but have not seen anything that would lead me to such a conclusion … yet!

However, I don’t discount those that have “experiences” or observations. I don't call them "idiots" or "ignorant." The “truth jury” is still out.

And that’s the TRUTH! TRUTH? (Do I need to start a Novena!)

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#107036 - 05/19/13 02:39 PM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3115
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
On a completely unrelated story: A new TV series that you probably won’t be seeing … but should!

Called “Beverley Hills Cop,” it’s a take-off on the movie and stars Eddie Murphy (as the dad) and Brandon T. Jackson as the second-generation cop (action/comedy). The pilot was GREAT, but as I learned yesterday (from my client), the show was not picked up by the network (CBS)! Unbelievable!

The producers are now “pitching” the show to other media outlets (and networks) and I hope this one gets aired. Amazingly, the financers now have to pay a fine because the show was not “picked up.” That doesn’t seem right at all.

Maybe “we” (laser/electrolysis) should pay a fine if the hairs aren’t removed permanently? Seems fair to me.

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#107050 - 05/19/13 11:12 PM Re: REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION [Re: Michael Bono]
CRC Biomedical Offline

Major Contributor

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 68
Loc: Washington, DC Metro Area
In any case, if anybody is truly interested in discussing what is causing this phenomena, feel free to contact me for more info. Continuing to contact the same people and achieving the same results isn't getting anybody anywhere.
_________________________
The industry leaders in third party laser sales, service, and warranties!
Mickey A. Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
President and Senior Technician
CRC Biomedical Services

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