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#94363 - 12/10/11 03:23 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: ekade]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3450
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
Hey Mike,

Yes, I am very aware of the ratio between diameter and length of the "working end." My first pick, however, is still a tapered needle. Problem is, none of the tapered needles made today are exactly the right size they don't quite fit.

As Barbara says, it's about many factors. Me: traditional blend, tapered needle and progressive epilation (two-handed technique is the key). It's a dying art for sure. But this ole dinosaur is still a "raptor." Grrrrrrrrr.

The old "Larry Douglas" tapered Hinkel-style were my favorites, but he's out of business. He was a real "pain in the you-know-what" to deal with, however. (Notice that I said "however," and not "too!" Amazing the different connotations language can engender?)

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#94364 - 12/10/11 03:34 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: ekade]
beate_r Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 898
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
Michael, i cannot follow Your idea that the insulation must be visible, simply because the blank tip is always hidden while the probe is inserted. Under a good loupe the length of the insulation of the ballet insulated can be seen - it is about half of the length of the tip of a laurier size 2.

Anyway the approach should lead to a different insertion technique - optimize what usually is calles "shallow insertion", especially strictly avoid deep insertions, and of course move vertically in order to reach the target region. What Dou You think about that?
_________________________
Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#94365 - 12/10/11 04:12 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: beate_r]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3450
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I worked doing hair transplants (cutting the grafts, punching the receptor holes and inserting the grafts), so I have a very good feel for exactly where each layer of skin is located (epidermis, dermis, fat layer, sebaceous glands, bulge, etc), and the thickness of these layers. Actually, I don't think an electrologist has really finished her education until she can see and examine a real-life dissected hair follicle under magnification. Photos and drawing are not the same.

The true location of sebaceous glands is shocking (nearly all drawings are flawed; essentially they are re-drawings of other drawings. Thus the errors are perpetrated.) Even photos do not give you the real sense of the skin: you must feel it and see the vast difference between, say, the dermis and subdermis. The layers ever smell differently. (Oh yes, nothing passed me by!)

As I insert the insulated probe, I put the working end in and insert to exactly where I want the insulation, i.e., to the upper dermis but not higher. So, I want to see the insulation itself. It's not enough to just insert the needle and hope for the best. Does that answer the question?

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#94366 - 12/10/11 04:15 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3450
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
I'd better have a look a the Ballet again. I simply gave up on them years ago. So, you can see the insulation?

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#94367 - 12/10/11 04:16 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: Michael Bono]
Michael Bono Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 3450
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA USA
And, oh, the FAT layer smells, well, disgusting!

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#94371 - 12/10/11 10:02 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: Michael Bono]
beate_r Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 898
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
During work i usually cannot see the insulation of the Ballet probes (well except when it detaches from the needle which sometimes happens - especially with size 2). On the open needle i can see it and therefore know where it ends (about 1.5 mm away from the tip, pretty consistent over all sizes). Well i admit that it is a bit hard to see it but possible.
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Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#94373 - 12/10/11 11:44 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: beate_r]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I see it fine on the Ballet brand insulated probes, but I can see it even better on Laurier and Pro-Tech probes, FYI.
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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#94377 - 12/11/11 01:38 AM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: dfahey]
beate_r Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 898
Loc: Hattersheim, Germany
Coming back to the thread's main topic:

does anycone know where and in what context this figure has been posted?

Did You notice that we must fully renew our understandung of the hair growth cycle? As far as i can read that picture it appears that the hair vanishes completely after falling out with just some stem cells remaining. These will eventually differentiate into a full new follicle (or even into two follicles as visible in the visualisation?) Furthermore there always seem to be some stray stem cells beneath the sebacous glands fairly far away from the hair and somewhat outside our target region.

This explains statements of a collegue in my further neighbourhood like " i always use an intensity slightly larger that the minimum needed to smoothly release the hair" and "it suffices not to insert to full depth". (She knows what she is doing and gets good results).

What can wen learn from this for

a) prediction of results?
b) understanding why "they just won't go away" (thread opened by Michael in this forum
c) improvement of our work?


Edited by beate_r (12/11/11 01:39 AM)
_________________________
Beate Ritzert

Elektroepilation Dr. Beate Ritzert
http://epi.ritzert.net/en/

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#94383 - 12/11/11 10:39 AM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: beate_r]
follizap Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 142
Loc: england
I've spent the last hour or so searching for the insulation on a ballet needle size 4. I used a stereo microscope and a usb microscope and it is my opinion that it cannot be seen unless it is physically scraped off. I did this and it turns out that the insulation itself is almost clear, this is why it Can't be seen against the steel of the needle. I have taken pictures of insulated and non insulated side by side and I personally think you cant tell them apart. I took a picture of the needle that I scraped and bent and the insulation can just about be seen where it has detached, it's clear. I've included the packaging in the pictures so that they can be told apart. I took another picture of a size2 insulated next to a size4 non insulated and you can just see a tiny piece of broken away insulation between them, it's clear. In this picture it might be just about possible to see the insulation on the size2 but it could be a trick of the light, I personally wouldn't want to say for sure.
I don't think it would be possible to see this with loupes, even 10X magnification. My stereo scope goes to 20X and the usb supposedly goes to 200X but I have my doubts (as usual wink ) either way the images are highly magnified and they've not been tweaked or adjusted. If anyone is interested get in touch via email and I'll send them to you and maybe you could post them in this thread.... I did try and it gave me a headache spinwindy@hotmail.com











Edited by James W. Walker VII (12/11/11 05:31 PM)
Edit Reason: added pictures at poster's request

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#94384 - 12/11/11 01:55 PM Re: Useful visualization of follicle stem cells [Re: follizap]
dfahey Offline

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9689
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
( I am not referring to the pictures above when I say this.)

I can see a differentiation between the bare part of the needle/probe and where the insulated part begins on any size of the ballet insulated probes. The light has to be right though as it is not as easy to see certain characteristics like I can see immediately with the Laurier probe, without magnification. The insulated part of the Ballet has a one micron thick medical grade clear coating that they use it to make insertions smoother. At times, I have been working away and I see this funnel-shaped clear coating drop away from the probe. That, I assume, is the clear coating that covers the insulation and is not the insulation itself. So, I re-load with a new probe. I don't know why that happens and no, the probes are not expired.


Edited by dfahey (12/12/11 05:05 AM)
Edit Reason: Added more info for more clarity
_________________________
Dee Fahey, R.N., C.T.
Licensed by the State Medical Board of Ohio for Nursing license and Cosmetic Therapy/Electrolysis license
_____________________
ELECTROLYSIS FAQ'S:

British Institute & Association of Electrolysis

http://www.electrolysis.co.uk/?page_id=16

Do not give up, the beginning is always the hardest.

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