Regrowth charts

Posted by: allowit

Regrowth charts - 09/01/02 11:49 AM

i electolysed an area about three weeks back but now it seems that hairs are starting to regrow in that area. is this normal and does it take two or three tries before it goes away permenently?
also as my one touch dial is broken and stuck on two is it possible to permenently remove hairs while on dial 2, (perhaps leave it for 40 seconds instead of the recommended 15?)

[ March 31, 2003, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Andrea ]
Posted by: NoHair

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/01/02 05:03 PM

Hair grows back at different rates in different parts of the body. Typically hair will grow back in about 6 to 8 weeks, so at 3 weeks you are probably seeing hairs that were not visible when you did the treatment to that area. So although you may have good success at eliminating the hairs you did treat, you still need to treat the area repeatedly as other hairs surface. If you did not properly destroy the hairs that you did treat, then of course they may come back weaker or full force, depending on the skill of your initial treatment, and may need to be treated again.

I believe that 40 seconds is a much more controllable treatment time than 15. A few seconds of overtreatment at the lower setting will do much less damage than the same amount of extra time at a high setting. You should be judging the overall time by the success of the treatment of the previous similar hair; the time should be just enough to remove the hair without much force. Any extra time and you can do unwanted damage. Thicker and/or deeper hairs often require more treatment time at the same dial setting.
Posted by: Andrea

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/03/02 12:29 PM

NoHair, there's a lot of debate about hair growth cycles, but it's probably likely that any hair at 6 to 8 weeks is still new growth and not regrowth of treated hairs.

allowit, you should treat hairs until they are able to slide out easily. Depending on the depth and coarseness of the hairs, this can take 15 seconds to a minute or more. At a lower setting, it can be even longer than that. After a few hairs of the same type, you should have a rough idea of how long they take to remove. After that much time, try the hair gently. If it doesn't slide out, treat it again. I ouldn't treat the same hair more than three times.

If your unit isn't recently purchased, you might try taking it back for a refund.
Posted by: NoHair

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/06/02 09:40 PM

Gior's book Modern Electrology has a chart titled Regrowth Time Chart:

Hairline (front or back) F/M - 5 to 6 weeks
Eyebrows F/M - 5 to 6 weeks
Top of Nose F/M - 10 to 12 weeks
Upper Lip (vellus hair) F - 8 to 9 weeks
Upper Lip (terminal) F/M - 4 to 6 weeks
Side of Face (vellus) F - 12 to 14 weeks
Side of Face (terminal) F/M - 5 to 6 weeks
Chin (vellus) F - 6 to 7 weeks
Chin (terminal) F/M - 5 to 6 weeks
Neck (terminal) F - 5 to 6 weeks
Neck (terminal) M - 4 to 5 weeks
Ears (outside vellus) F/M - 10 to 11 weeks
Ears (outside terminal) F/M - 7 to 8 weeks
Breast F - 7 to 8 weeks
Chest (terminal) F - 7 to 8 weeks
Chest (terminal) M - 6 to 7 weeks
Back & Shoulders (terminal) F - 7 to 8 weeks
Back & Shoulders (terminal) M - 6 to 7 weeks
Arms (terminal) F/M - 7 to 8 weeks
Legs (terminal) F/M - 6 to 7 weeks
Hands (terminal) F/M - 7 to 8 weeks
Underarms (terminal) F/M - 7 to 8 weeks
Abdomen (terminal) F - 8 to 9 weeks
Inner Thighs (terminal) F - 5 to 6 weeks
Feet, toes (terminal) F/M - 6 to 8 weeks
Posted by: Andrea

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/06/02 10:33 PM

Fino's estimates are not based on published clinical data.

Myers and Hamilton observed rates of 3 to 4 months for hairs to return after plucking from scalp, armpit, and thigh, as an example.

A more useful chart of growth cycles appears in Richards, p. 39:

T = duration of telogen
A = duration of anagen

Eyebrows: 16-20 weeks
T = 12 weeks A = 4-8 weeks

Ears: 16-20 weeks
T = 12 weeks A = 4-8 weeks

Beard (chin): 66 weeks
T = 10 weeks A = 52 weeks

Moustache (upper lip): 22 weeks
T = 6 weeks A = 16 weeks

Axillae (armpits): 28 weeks
T = 12 weeks A = 16 weeks

Arms: 31 weeks
T = 18 weeks A = 13 weeks

Legs & thighs: 40 weeks
T = 24 weeks A =16 weeks

The Richards/Meharg chart is by no means complete, since very few clinical studies have performed careful observations of individual hair follicles. They cite 14 published papers in compiling their chart of hair growth, and the chart itself as it appears in their book has many blank spots. Better to wait until someone performs clinical observations than to hazard a guess, they feel. I do, too.

I like and respect Fino Gior a lot, but he sometimes makes authoritative statements based on anecdotal observations rather than meticulous scientific data. This tendency of making authoritative-sounding statements with no basis in published medical data has led to loopholes exploited by hair removal quacks, such as a 1979 promotional brochure he authored which laid out a supposed "standard" by which epilators should be judged.

What this goes to show is that even people with the best intentions should base statements on careful clinical observation when dealing with something as complicated as hair removal. Fino's estimates of time to completion are very useful for consumers, but they are just that-- estimates. His regrowth chart is, in my opinion, spurious at best.

I believe the only way to determine long-term hair removal is to observe for 26 weeks after final treatment (a standard growth cycle for many types of hair), and the only way to determine permanent hair removal is to make observations 52 weeks after final treatment (two standard growth cycles for many types of hair).

[ September 06, 2002, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Andrea ]
Posted by: NoHair

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/07/02 01:01 AM

I agree. Thanks for the info!
Posted by: RJC2001

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/10/02 02:32 AM

Given that the anagen stage for the beard is about 52 weeks long, shouldn't that mean that fewer treatments would be required to remove the hair there? After all, there is a higher probablility of catching the beard in the growth stage. Of course I suppose it also depends on what percentage of beard hairs are in the growth stage at any given point in time.

Does the percentage of hair in the growth stage at a given time vary by body part too?

Posted by: Andrea

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/10/02 06:36 AM

Funny you should ask! Also from Richards/Meharg, page 39:

Body part: % Telogen / % Anagen

Scalp: 13/85
Eyebrows: 90/10
Ear: 85/15
Cheeks: 30-50/50-70
Beard(chin): 30/70
Moustache (upper lip): 35/65
Armpits: 70/30
Pubic area: 70/30
Arms: 80/20
Legs/thighs: 80/20
Breasts: 70/30

Facial hair usually requires more treatments because it is heavily androgen-influenced. Although hairs are best treated in anagen stage, facial hair is usually so tenacious that it's hard to kill even in anagen stage.

[ September 09, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Andrea ]
Posted by: RJC2001

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/11/02 03:23 AM

Thanks for the info. Andrea. That explains why I have more hair left on my upper arms than on my chest and back. At any given time a lower percentage of arm hair (only about 20%) is in the anagen stage. I would suppose that laser treatments though may alter those percentages. One of the links you provided on the hairfacts had an artilce that explained how laser may force some hairs into an earlier telogen stage and that eventually more hairs will be in the growth stage at the same time. In effect the growth stages could be more synchronized.

Could you provide the URL for the Richards article on growth stages?

Posted by: Andrea

Re: Regrowth charts - 09/11/02 03:39 AM

Yes, it stands to reason that laser may assist in synchronizing hair growth patterns after several treatments.

The complete Richards/Meharg chart is not available online as far as I know. Their site appears to be down.

Hairfacts: Richards/Meharg publishing data

If you are interested in purchasing a copy of
In the U.S./overseas send:
$69.95 + $9.00 postage/handling = $78.95 U.S. Currency -cheque/money order
In Canada Only (add GST) send:
$69.95 + $6.00 postage/handling + 7% = $81.27 Canadian Currency
Medric Ltd.
P.O. Box No. 1000
Station B
North York, Ontario
Canada M2K 2T6
Posted by: DIY'er

Re: Regrowth charts - 01/04/04 04:46 PM

After looking at the two tables, it occurs to me that the the ratio of the time a hair spends in anagen to the time a hair spends in telogen ought to be the same as the ratio of anagen hairs to telogen hairs at any one time.

In other words, if a hair spends one week in anagen and three weeks in telogen, the hairs in that area ought to be 25% anagen and 75% telogen.

The ratios shown don't match all that well.

I suppose the data came from different studies, so no surprise it's somewhat inconsistent.

- Eric
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 08/04/05 10:01 PM

I figure I may as well, add this to the sticky, since it is a part of this idea, and people keep asking about it.

Obviously, hairs grow from nothing to something in growth phase, stop growing, and begin the process of being pushed out by the body in shedding phase, and in resting phase, they are either gone because they have fallen out of the skin, or the hair is resting at the top of the skin's surface waiting for either something to make it fall out, or for the follicle to become active again, and a new hair to either push it out, or wedge it in the follicle further by squeezing past it.

The reason you might think you see nothing being gained in the early going is that you can't see what has been done for months, or a full year. Take before, during and after shots to really appreciate what is going on here.

Think of your skin as a Grid. Think of this Grid as being 10 x 10 spaces in square form. If left to their own devices, the follicles in the first row, (1 - 10) will present hairs in spaces 1, 3 and 9. These hairs will cycle, and as they get ready to fall out, hairs in spaces 2, 5 and 10 begin growing, and brake surface just as hairs 1, 3 and 9 fall out.

Now it looks to the naked eye as if nothing has happened, because one saw 3 hairs in that area, and there are still 3 hairs in that space.

If one removes the hairs in spaces 1, 3 and 9, one will be targeting spaces 2, 5 and 10 when they come out in 6 to 9 weeks, and later, hairs will present in 4, 6 and 8. It takes a full 9 months for all these hairs to present. By the way, space 7 never grows hair in this example.

One should never have to treat a follicle more than 2 times. Three times is the most I can see, unless the practitioner is very bad or the client doesn't show up on schedule. If the client is the problem, the practitioner might never actually get to treat that hair while it is in growth phase, if ever at all. (If you never come in during the months of November, December, and January, there are hairs that the practitioner will never, ever see, or treat, and you will always have those hairs in winter.)

So your skin Grid starts like this:
X = Hair and _ equals empty space

X_X_ _ _ _ _X_
_X_ _X_ _ _ _X
_ _ _X_X_X_ _
X_X_ _ _ _ _X
_X_ _X_ _ _ _X
_ _ _X_X_X_ _
X_X_ _ _ _ _X_
_X_ _X_ _ _ _X
_ _ _X_X_X_ _
X_X_ _ _ _ _X

Now, in 6 to 12 weeks, the Grid changes to this:

_X_ _X_ _ _ _X
X_X_ _ _ _ _X
_ _ X_X_X_ _ _
_X_ _X_ _ _ _X
X_X_ _ _ _ _X
_ _ _X_X_X_ _
_X_ _X_ _ _ _X
X_X_ _ _ _ _X
_ _ X_X_X_ _ _
_X_ _X_ _ _ _X

And it will change again in another 6 to 12 weeks. As you can see, there is the same number of hairs in the Grid, but their placing has changed.

In most cases, one's electrologist won't be clearing all these hairs the first time out, so one is chasing the Grid, looking to catch each hair as it comes out in growth phase, which gets easier to do as you clear hairs, because there are fewer left to present in the first place.

Does this help you understand how it is possible for the CLIENT to frustrate even the best electrologist by not coming in on schedule? Can you see why going long and frequent hours to start with costs you less in the long run, because you get more hairs in the growth phase, and have an easier time keeping up with the growing hairs as it comes in? Can you see how many people THINK their electrologist was failing them, when they just never really gave the practitioner a fair chance?
Posted by: MeganHalloway

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/03/06 02:40 PM

I honestly think that you are seeing hairs that were not visible at the time that you did this procedure. This is why you need to do it a couple of times. Usually you shouldn't do it until 6 or 8 weeks after the first procedure though.

~ Megan @ Hair Removal A Guide to find the best hair removal option for you
Posted by: EllenK

Re: Regrowth charts - 11/12/06 11:13 AM


I'm a Electrologist from Germany and search for the book "Cosmetic and Medical Electrolysis and Temporary Hair Removal" from Richards, R. N.; Meharg, G. E., because I want the complete Richards/Meharg chart. But my bookseller tell me, that this book is out of stock and never will be published.

Can anybody help me or can give me a copy from the chart.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 11/12/06 08:00 PM

The book is easily available here in the US and Canada. If you want the full text, you need only arrange to have it delivered to you from the US or Canada.
Posted by: EllenK

Re: Regrowth charts - 11/13/06 07:50 AM

Hi James,

did you have an adress (email, homepage) for me?
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 11/13/06 01:41 PM is the email address for Texas Electrolysis Supply. I am sure that Dr. Heimlich and the crew can get you a copy over there. I can't say what the total cost will be due to customes and international shipping, but I am sure they can get it to you. They said they had the book in it's current form (If you ever see the original version on Ebay, grab it! More pages, more information)
Posted by: EllenK

Re: Regrowth charts - 11/14/06 07:38 AM

Thanks for your helpfully information.

Did you stay next year at the AEA Convention at San Francisco? Then we maybe will meet us. I'm glad.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 11/14/06 12:55 PM

At the moment, I plan on being in San Fransico for the AEA Event, even if I don't bother with the classes, (Depends on the program they put together) I do go to these things to meet friends old and new.

I hope to see you there. I love SF! It is on my short list of places I actually would consider relocating myself.
Posted by: Chuck

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/07/07 05:38 AM

 Originally Posted By: RJC2001
Thanks for the info. Andrea. That explains why I have more hair left on my upper arms than on my chest and back. At any given time a lower percentage of arm hair (only about 20%) is in the anagen stage. I would suppose that laser treatments though may alter those percentages. One of the links you provided on the hairfacts had an artilce that explained how laser may force some hairs into an earlier telogen stage and that eventually more hairs will be in the growth stage at the same time. In effect the growth stages could be more synchronized.

Could you provide the URL for the Richards article on growth stages?


Were they talking about upper arm hair when they said "arms"? I can tell you, that 70% of my hairs on my upper arms are anagen hairs according to my electrolysists and from what I see when there is a black bulb pulled out on the end.
Posted by: newbhairkiller

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/20/09 04:01 AM

i dont yet know much about electrolysis, but unfortunately i certainly know plenty about plucking. about 90% of my hairs return in 2 weeks on the dot, not similar hairs around the same area, same actual hairs. had elect. done. 30-40% kill rate. 60% - 70% came back. the majority of those came back in 3 weeks instead of 2. so i had a week of false hope. but that was a great week in my life.
Posted by: dfahey

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/20/09 04:34 AM

You don't understand the electrolysis process. Nothing false about this. Electrolysis works when it is performed correctly, on a good schedule, with a compliant client and and a competent, skilled electrologist. Otherwise, expect failure.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/20/09 11:44 AM

What you, and many other people don't understand is that to "try" electrolysis with only one treatment, one would have to take a "Before" picture, do the treatment, take an "After" picture, and then wait a year, and take another "After" picture on the one year anniversary of the treatment. What you see on that day, one year later, would be the proper evaluation of the amount of hair removal you received.

The hair you saw 3 weeks later was just other hairs in nearby follicles coming out on schedule. That's why it takes 9 to 18 months to do this well, depending on the schedule the clients gets treated on, and the skill and speed of the practitioner doing the work. If hair grew like you seem to think it does, you would grow hair during some months, and then it would all fall out and you would be bald for some months. Since hair growth is a scheduled affair with shifting presentations of the same number of hairs being visable at all times, it is deceptive to the uninformed.
Posted by: Aliciadarling

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/20/09 12:15 PM

Originally Posted By: newbhairkiller
i dont yet know much about electrolysis, but unfortunately i certainly know plenty about plucking. about 90% of my hairs return in 2 weeks on the dot, not similar hairs around the same area, same actual hairs. had elect. done. 30-40% kill rate. 60% - 70% came back. the majority of those came back in 3 weeks instead of 2. so i had a week of false hope. but that was a great week in my life.

Maybe you should try your hand at chickens or banjos.

You need to give it an actual try on a schedule before you make false

It worked for me, but not after only one or two sessions. It takes
longer as both Deee and James stated.

Posted by: newbhairkiller

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/21/09 03:28 AM

I made no assumptions. I never said electrolysis doesn't work. I knew nothing about electrolysis, i still don't. i was extremely misinformed by the electrologist. he told me one pass, one time, 90% of hairs would be gone. forever. $1600 after the plane flight and treatment.
NOW I know that it needs to be done on a schedule. That's why I bought the machine to do my own work, I wouldn't have spent 900 bucks if i didn't have faith in electrolysis.
All I am saying is this. i pluck 160 hairs on friday. 2 fridays later, pretty much exactly 160 hairs return. every time. you can't possibly expect me to believe that all theses hairs are new and just happen to be in the exact spot and all come in exactly 2 weeks later?? over and over and over again. i have been plucking these same hairs for 20 years!! believe me i know.
again i must say, i have the upmost respect for all you pros and electrolysis in general, but it doesn't take 6 or 8 weeks for my hair to return after plucking, i wish!! and i'de love to take up the banjo instead, i am doing this to end a 20 year cycle of depression over this problem. didn't mean to offend anyone frown
Posted by: VickieCNY

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/21/09 08:19 AM

I might be able to answer part of this one (pros, feel free to take me to task if I get this wrong.)

When you pluck, you may end up with some hairs that break off under the skin. Those hairs will continue to grow up and out of the follicle, or in the case of non-anagen hairs will continue to be squeezed out of the follicle (and look like they are growing.)

I know this, because I had the same problem. I used to pluck as much of my beard out as I could (including much of the upper lip sick) and had the exact same problem you have. I pluck an area clean, and in mere days some of the hair is already "back" and there is still some shadow under the skin, indicating hair left under the skin.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/21/09 01:57 PM

It has already been pointed out that to see what the value of one treatment would be would require a year to see that.

If one wanted to clear up a hair problem in "one pass", the definition of a pass in electrolysis would be multiple treatments spread out over the course of the growing cycle of the hairs in the treatment area, covering the entire span from start to finish, so that all hairs that ever grow in that area are treated sometime between the time they first present above the skin's surface, and before the hairs go into shedding phase.

It is very difficult for practitioners to explain to the general public what we do, how we do it, and have them understand well enough what they need to do. Above that, the person must trust that what we have told them is correct, long enough to see the proof of what we have said. Often times, we don't get that time, nor enough co-operation to make that happen.
Posted by: newbhairkiller

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/23/09 04:02 AM

1) i am sitting here absolutely amazed. i pluck 160 hairs. 160 hairs come back 2 weeks later. so i wait a week to make sure they're all back. i pluck all of them again. 2 weeks later, 160 hairs are back. they don't break off, i can see the gel around the base. they'de all have to break off to come back with nearly 100% consistancy. my regrowth cycle in this area is 2 weeks. are u saying im the only one in the world who must pluck the same hairs every 2 weeks???? lucky me. well it will be easier to zap them anyway.

2) the so called electrologyst said to me "come for 1 treatment. 4 hours. 90% of your hairs are gone forever" i didn't misunderstand a thing. i was mislead. his place was a mess. he was not a professional. his machine was homemade. i was tricked by a fancy website. i know exactly what u are saying. if he had explained the cycle of hair growth thing, i would have understood it completely. i should have researched before i went. i wish i had gone to a reputable establishment like yours. but either way, it's too expensive for me to travel as many times as would be needed.
Posted by: dfahey

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/23/09 01:50 PM

It is very important to keep in mind that you have more hair than you think. Tweezing, prior to setting your mind on getting electrolysis, makes this more evident. If you tweeze 100 hairs a day on your chin and there are 7 days in a weeks, then you are tweezing 700 hairs a week. If a hair growth cycle is every 8 weeks, and you are tweezing 700 hairs a week, then you can assume that the chin area has about 5,600 active hair follicles!!!!! That means over the next 9-18 months, we are playing the waiting and punching game. We are waiting for all 5,600 hairs to come to the surface so we can see and punch them. Human hair does not appear at the surface all at the same time. It comes in dribs and drabs, sort of like the drip, drip, drip, drip pattern of a leaky faucet. That's why permanent hair removal takes a minimum of 9 months and a maximum of 18 months to bring full relief.

Hair growth cycles are hard to understand and visualize. Just know that 160 hairs do not come back in two weeks. It is biologically impossible. Mother Nature is a strong opponent, but she doesn't work that fast. What you are seeing are neighboring hair follicles, close to the ones that you tweezed, cycling in.

About your electrologist you say was not a professional. That is why we say go on the hunt for a professional, skilled, competent, modern electrologist. An electrologist has to be a compassionate teacher, be as skilled as a surgeon with the hand eye coordination, have a hygenic office and be a person of hygiene as well. To know what that means, you need to read the electrolysis boards and . You will put it all together and you will have a certain comfort level when you finally choose. People do travel to the better electrologist if they can't find satisfaction close to home. That is a personal decision and sacrifice that one has to come to terms with. I know this is not easy, but many things are not easy, but if you know it is action you have to take for a period of 9-18 months to get something permanent, then it is worth it.

Posted by: newbhairkiller

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/24/09 03:12 AM

yes, i wish i had found this site before i made that decision. this is all very informative. well, i give up on my hair cycle argumentLOL, i see i would have to prove it to you. i will say one more thing tho. a couple of my pores have scars from ingrown hair battles. if i tweeze the hair in the scarred pore, and see the root of the hair knowing it didn't break, and there's no other hair around within a 1/8 of an inch or so, that exact hair in that exact scarred pore is back 2 weeks later. i wish i lived closer, i could make a fortune off you in a bet. wink anyway, that aside, thnx for all the info so far, i value your opinion.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/24/09 01:10 PM

We are not being petty here, but I have to say on the point of knowing exactly which hair, or which follicle is which, scientists use one of two ways to mark them, radioactive markers, or with the insertion of fiberglas markers. Unless you go that far, you really don't know that it isn't a different follicle 15 microns to the left of the one you want to monitor.
Posted by: dfahey

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/24/09 02:34 PM

Hair follicles can be very, very close to each other and there millions of them. Some are empty and can never grow a hair, some are active and do grow hair on regular basis and some are dormant and have a hair in it, but the follicle is just asleep until something wakes it up! So, it is hard to convince someone that what they are observing is not really what they are observing.

I'm glad you found this site helpful. That's the intention.
Posted by: F6Hawk

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/26/09 10:50 AM

Newb, trust these folks when they talk, they know about what they speak! Notice the number of posts by them, it's not just trying to fill bored time in their life.

It is hard to imagine at our level; I know, because I recently purchased my own equipment, part of which is a decent set of 5X loupes and a halogen lamp that really lights up an area. What looks to my naked eye like multiple (2-4) hairs growing out of one "pore" (follicle) is actually 2-4 hairs that are SO CLOSE to one another that they just appear to be in the same follicle.

On that note, there are hairs that are alone, with nothing around them... except about a hundred empty follicles. As Dee said, some are dormant, some don't grow hair at all. In a week or more, some of those empty follicles fill with hair. Some don't, and haven't for years. But with the proper stimulus (laser can provide this stimulus sometimes), hair begins to grow from these follicles.

When your book arrives, and as you begin to observe your hair under magnification, you will see that it is physically impossible to have multiple hairs in one follicle, or for hair to grow as fast as you describe. Not trying to say you are average; perhaps your hair DOES grow faster than average, but if Dee & James are telling you it's impossible to see hair regrowth that fast from an improperly treated follicle, then it is impossible.

The bad news is, the task of removing so much hair without instruction can be daunting, and it is easy to get discouraged. The good news is, the folks here will give you as much help as is humanly possible online. Stick with it, learn the ropes, and you CAN and WILL achieve your goal. It will take you much longer alone than it would take with a pro, but the price is right, and heck, you are going to spend the rest of your life with you anyway, so what have you got to lose? smile

Good luck to you, and many happy, permanently removed hairs!
Posted by: Barbara_CPE

Re: Regrowth charts - 02/26/09 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: newbhairkiller
1) i am sitting here absolutely amazed. i pluck 160 hairs. 160 hairs come back 2 weeks later. so i wait a week to make sure they're all back. i pluck all of them again. 2 weeks later, 160 hairs are back. they don't break off, i can see the gel around the base. they'de all have to break off to come back with nearly 100% consistancy. my regrowth cycle in this area is 2 weeks. are u saying im the only one in the world who must pluck the same hairs every 2 weeks???? lucky me. well it will be easier to zap them anyway.

I know you are done hearing our consults, but I must throw this in. If each of your 160 tweezed hairs grows back in 2 weeks - then you only have 160 hairs. Do this for me. Don't tweeze in 2 weeks, wait 3. You will probably tweeze 240 hairs in 3 weeks....Oh My! You grew 80 new hairs!!!!

If you are like the rest of the human race, then your body is cycling in a few old hairs every day. If you are seeing 160 hairs in two weeks, then you are have 11 or 12 hairs cycling in every day. If you are only needing to remove these every 2 weeks, you are fortunate. I have women who used to tweeze for 30 minutes every day! They thought they were tweezing the same hairs every day.

Hair grows, hair sheds...none are synchronized.
Posted by: toeman

Re: Regrowth charts - 03/31/09 08:20 AM

ok I have read all of the posts but still my question remains....

I have a question about hair regrowth which I just can't seem to figure out....
I have been cracking my brains on this one but I just don't understand....

Like I said before I am getting electrolysis (blend) treatment on the genital area....
Normally if I would pluck the area the hairs would be back in about 2 weeks (and I am speaking of full regrowth)....

Now when I do electrolysis the area stays hairfree for many more weeks.
The regrowth comes back after like 5-8 weeks....
Now I know that is because of the normal growth cycle....
And that the hairs I would normally see after 2 weeks are new hairs....(and no the hairs didn't break off....)
But why don't they also show up after two weeks after I have been treated?
I mean, apart from the electrolysis, it is plucking like usual....
So something must be happening....But what!?
And when we speak of new hairs in the same spot....are these hairs from a different dermal papilla?

So why is it that with electrolysis the areas where hair does grow back, it takes such a long time compared to all the other times when I plucked it?
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 03/31/09 04:17 PM

Properly performed electrolysis renders the treated follicle UNABLE TO GROW NEW HAIR. By definition no more hair ever grows from a properly treated follicle ever again. Therefore, any hair seen in that area would be from a different follicle.

As the grid in the regrowth chart post attempt to give you the visual, although you treat a follicle, when the next hair springs up from a follicle located 20 microns to the left, it looks like the same hair to the person who is just looking at that same area of skin 2 to 8 weeks later.
Posted by: lefty2g , LE, CPE

Re: Regrowth charts - 04/08/09 03:59 AM

You said,"I know". Wanna bet? Communication is a big problem in this world. Between husband and wife, between parents and kids, between heads of state, between doctor and patient (usually because the doc is too busy), but worst is the communication between electrologist and client probably due to the emotional factor and the poor communication skills of most electrologists with the patient's lack of ability to comprehend what is going on. When I come across a patient who cannot understand, I suggest they get another opinion. So, for all of you who are having trouble with your patient.. because that last patient you had may be one who I suggested she get another opinion, or learn better communication skills.

Patients want miracles and we do not do that. Some of us are better at what we do than others so it may seem like a miracle, just like doctors or hairdressers (doctors call it "complications" when there is an boo boo. We do not have that luxury even if some patients do not heal well. Perhaps we oversell our work as we do not want to lose a patient because this is still a business. Patients have an emotional factor as well and they do not want to talk about anything except "remove the hair" today, NOW. Sometimes we become Psychiatrists to the patients because they feel SAFE and they have to get something off their chest and they do not know who else they can talk to (I could write a book about the stories I've heard but that is unethical). When you say ,"I KNOW", believe me do not... IF I GAVE YOU A TEST on the basics of electrology YOU WOULD FAIL BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW. YOU WERE TOLD EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED TO HEAR. HOW CAN YOU FIND ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT? YOUR GUY WAS using some psychology. "Give 'em what they want. Tell 'em what they want to hear." That is exactly what they want and it is a little bit showbiz.

HAIR GROWS at the rate of about 1/2 inch per month but that does NOT INCLUDE the time it takes from when a hair is "plucked" and a new hair has to reorganize and then send up a new shaft. It takes time to reach the surface and that varies for each follicle because the depth of the follicle varies and the hair you see might not be a replacement for the one you plucked, therefore, you have to start with a hair that is cut at the hairline as in shaving. There is a more accurate method. It involves giving the patient one dose of a chemical marker (cystine) that follicles love. The chemical is picked up by a growing hair and it is incorporated into the hair chemistry. You know when the chemical was given and you know when the chemical is seen in hair that is poking through the surface. Therefore, you can measure the distance between the marker in the hair as the day you gave the patient a marker to the day when the marker no longer is in a hair. The distance from beginning to end of the marker in the hair tells you exactly how fast the hair was growing and you know how many days it took to reach the surface. A little bit of math and you can figure out the speed for each area of the body. You know when the dye was given and you can measure the distance from the first appearance of the dye to when the dye ends on the hair. The distance from the beginning of the dye to the end of the dye tells you how long the hair was growing and the rate of growth. Since you know when you gave the dye you can determine the exact date the dye was given and how much growth per day took place until the dye ended on the hair shaft. There is a type of follicle called a "compound follicle". It consists of multiple papillae that meet in a single follicle. Similar to a road where 2 or 3 lanes meet at a single lane. These hairs are not connected to one another. They are independent of one another except that they all come out of a single follicle (keep in mind that the follicle is only a way to get the hair out of the body. The papilla is where the hair begins as this is where the cells that become hair originate). It is common to see 2 hairs coming from one follicle, but it is probably more common than we see it because the hair can be wiped off with the friction of a towel.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Regrowth charts - 04/10/09 11:26 PM

if I understand correctly, you said it was common that two hairs from one follicle. Sorry not to agree with you. The follicles are grouped in threes, parallel or crossed between them, but each is independent and should be treated. As shown by the drawings.
If I've misunderstood, Sorry. Thank you
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Regrowth charts - 04/11/09 08:23 PM

As shown by the drawings.
picasa pictures
Posted by: lefty2g , LE, CPE

Re: Regrowth charts - 04/12/09 06:40 AM

I like this forum because of this. We can have different opinions and inform one another or disagree with each other. Here we are not competitors ..we are colleagues. When we are advertising for new business we are competitors.

Many (not all) electrologists will agree that it is common to see two hairs growing from a single follicle. Yes hairs do happen to grow in clusters of three, however, there can be three follicles growing in close proximity. There are also "compound follicles" where two or more follicle grow in close proximity to one another but they are like "siamese follicles". As the hair grows independently from each follicle they grow upward and meet at a fork in the road. Similar to 3 lanes of road merging to 1 follicle opening. The electrology text shows sketches of this. There are none in dermatology texts because, as one doctor told me,"Who Cares?" A chinchilla has 1000 hairs per follicle and there are no more in the wild. They are raised on ranches these days.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Regrowth charts - 04/12/09 10:37 AM

We agree on our love for this forum. Finally, I found a forum in which the level of expertise of my colleagues, is very high. Shame that this forum is not Spanish. Electrology do not need the publicity, has no competition, what it needs professionals who are good ... especially the work in Spain.

"...there can be three follicles growing in close proximity..."

The number of follicles we have throughout our life, is determined before birth. No increase in quantity, on the contrary, it declined slowly and progressively with age.
I have seen you mention the case of three different hairs in one follicle, but it is not a common thing, it's very, very rare.
I do not agree with that doctor who said: who cares? cares greatly for those who do not want to be bald.
PS: I love all animals are alive, especially chinchillas.
Posted by: lefty2g , LE, CPE

Re: Regrowth charts - 05/10/09 05:15 AM

I once asked Fino about the length of time it took to remove hair from an upper lip (this was at an AEA convention where he was showing his now famous tape with Regis Philbin). This was because he told Regis a very LOW MOUNT OF TIME (I DO NOT REMEBER THE EXACT TIME NOW AS IT WAS MANY YEARS AGO but I do remember the incident). His answer to me was, "You have to tell him something". My reply to him was, "Yes, but it should be the TRUTH." I lost all faith in him at that time.

I have to admit he is an EXCELLENT PROMOTER OF HIMSELF. I can not speak to his excellence as an electrologist any more than anyone else can speak of any other electrologist unless you actually see them work on a few patients over an extended time.

He started in Pennsylvania where there was no licensing at that time. He moved to NY where there is no licensing of electrologists then and I believe to this day. I never found out where he learned electrolysis or if he even went to any school for this. However,I CAN SAY, he is an excellent promoter of himself.

He speaks of having people visit him from all over the world and return every few weeks for repeat treatments. I have difficulty with that one. I also have patients from all over the world but I NEVER SAID they came only to see me. It was because my practice was in an extremely heavy college student area with thousands of students from about twenty very large schools. They were in the Boston area to go to school not just to visit me, but I TOO had patients from all over the world also. THAT IS THE TRUTH.

HE ALSO MAINTAINS HE IS A PUBLISHED AUTHOR. Anyone can do it as he has done. You just write a book and find a printer to publish it. When you pay him it will be PRINTED NOT PUBLISHED. YOU HAVE TO SELL IT YOURSELF.
Posted by: dfahey

Re: Regrowth charts - 05/10/09 05:18 PM

Lefty, dear, these are your words to me from the 'Questions' thread dated April 29,2009:

".............By-the-way, if you are willing to BAD MOUTH other electrologists you have to be prepared to get it in return. If you never noticed.... I never mention any other electrologist by name or city where they practice because it is UNETHICAL and NOT PROFESSIONAL............."

Now, how do you think Fino and his family would feel reading these words on an open forum??? He's not even having a conversation with you here to warrant such mean response. I know you were responding to Andrea's post from 2002 about his regrowth chart data, thus the topici of this thread. I'm sure his kids and wife love him, same as your family love you and it is most hurtful to discover that someone has sucker-punched a loved one. You really should be careful with your words or someone may SUE YOU for defamation. (You always bring up the word 'SUE', so I thought this is an appropriate situation to also mention that here.) Some feelings are better left unsaid. I don't personally know Fino, but I feel sorry for him right now.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 05/11/09 02:54 AM

Well, since it has been brought up, I will restate (as it is on this board elsewhere) my biggest beef with Fino's numbers are the fact that it is not good for the industry if everyone is expecting their local talent to duplicate his work.

People come on this site with the expectation that finding someone to do this work for them should be as easy as throwing a dart at the page in the phone book that lists Electrolysis. It takes much reading here for them to realize that this site would not exist if it were that easy.

The good thing about all this is that I can say that I have seen Fino work, and he has worked on me and what ever he tells you, he has done. Of course, since there are those who say that I am a tackling of Daunte Culpepper behind the line of scrimmage (Now there is an euphemism that will make those who get it laugh, while those who don't scratch their heads), many won't believe me. I do my best to point out that the reason we beg people to see lots of practitioners before settling in with anyone is the fact that your experience will be variable. This is one thing that I learned from Fino's example. I never say that what I do is what everyone should expect, and I don't even say that what I do is the best anyone should expect. It just seems that I am labeled a shameless self-promoter if I say that my work is better than some, and worse than few.

(...ok, I will give you a hint, Daunte Culpepper is the quarterback of the Detroit Lions... Wise man say, "He who laughs last, didn't get the joke)
Posted by: Ehpstein

Re: Regrowth charts - 08/16/09 03:06 AM

Another question to add to the regrowth pile ... is there a difference between white hairs and colored hairs? The white ones seem to always come out either as telogen (clean as a whistle, right?) or with a narley rough sheath, and no bulb. How long does it take to convince a white hair to stop growing back?
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 08/16/09 11:55 AM

One can kill a white hair with one treatment, if the treatment is done well. The difference is that white hairs are usually deeper and have a thicker growth matrix than its colored kin. (incidentally, thiamin, riboflavin and pantothenic acid are supposed to be good at keeping white hairs off your head, but you need to be sure that your Vitamin E and C levels are good first... and that you don't smoke.)
Posted by: Jacksandmarbles

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/03/09 08:46 AM

just a question. if only 10% of your eyebrow hair is in anagen growth phase then that means that 90% of your eyebrow hairs is in resting phase? so you only see around 10% of your eyebrow hair at a time? i'm asking because I have a friend who has overplucked her eyebrows and wants to try using rogaine on them to thicken them up. any information would be helpful. thanks!!
Posted by: C O'Connell

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/03/09 09:32 AM

I would strongly advise your friend not to use rogaine. Only the stronger type is effective, and it stimulates hair all over the face, not just where you apply it. Three months after using it, the stimulant effect subsides. I have had several clients who have had a very miserable time, after using this. It seems to have a very powerful effect on the area between the hairline and the upper eyebrow. The hairline virtually joins the brow.
Posted by: Jacksandmarbles

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/04/09 04:57 AM

yes, but my question was: according to these growth charts are only 10% of your eyebrow hairs growing on the surface of your skin and 90% in telogen resting phase. as in do you only see 10% of your eyebrow hairs. If you keep using rogaine then the stimulant effect will not subside and if she grows unwanted hair then it would be easy to just have that removed.
Posted by: C O'Connell

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/13/09 09:59 PM

Her eyebrows will be the least of her troubles if she uses rogaine. Please do a proper search on rogaine induced FACIAL hair growth.
Posted by: Jacksandmarbles

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/23/09 04:33 AM

I had too much hair removed from my hairline by an electrologist and I had to use rogaine on my hairline. That was 5% rogaine. I did not develop a problem with facial hair growth but I also did not get much hair growth in my hairline. Just peach fuzz. I guess it depends on the person. You can do a proper search on using rogaine on eyebrows and then you will see that there are many women who are doing this. Her dermatologist suggested it because of her sparse brows. Sice this was a thread about hair growth I was just wondering what percentage of eyebrow hair are in resting/ telogen phase at any given time.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/23/09 01:13 PM

This is one of those places where I get to say medical schools just are not doing their jobs, if the job is educating doctors to help you stay healthy. Loss of eyebrow hair, especially from the outer eye area inwards is a sign of thyroid problems, or endocrine system disfunction. The first thing that should have been done (assuming the eyebrow loss was not from overplucking the area) is to check for those problems, and tell the person how to help heal the thyroid and endocrine system.

As, for your growth question, 90% telogen, 10% anagen.
Posted by: Jacksandmarbles

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/23/09 06:19 PM

Thanks for answering my question. I have already read that thread and that is why I am commenting on it. I assume that the 90% in telogen phase means that it is hair that has already shed and therefore not currently seen on the surface of the skin?

I did state that it was due to overplucking the eyebrow. She does not have thyroid problems. I was not with her at the office visit so I do not know what what tests were ran. I am currently a medical student, and no offense to you James but I think you need to have actually been at the doctors visit and have all the information before you make statements like "medical schools just are not doing their jobs." I'm sure you would be equally as annoyed if I made statements like "electrolysis doesn't work and it leaves scars on your skin." There are good and bad doctors just like there are good and bad electrologists.
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/23/09 07:21 PM

Actually, most doctors when asked do say something like, "Electrolysis doesn't work and it leaves scars on your skin."
Posted by: VickieCNY

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/23/09 08:24 PM

The telogen hairs are in the process of shedding, but are still in the follicle and are visible on the skin's surface. If there is no hair in the follicle, it is in the "exogen" state of being empty and not yet in early anagen to start the process to regrow a hair.
Posted by: dfahey

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/23/09 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: James W. Walker VII, CPE
Actually, most doctors when asked do say something like, "Electrolysis doesn't work and it leaves scars on your skin."

Some don't even know what electrolysis is. The ones who say it doesn't work and leaves scars, probably have had feedback from some of their patients who had visited a below standards electrologist and the words were well earned. Some clients may have reported they were scarred when in fact, they had short-lived temporary side effects that cleared way before they saw the doctor much later for some other problem. Temporary skin manifestations are frequently mistakenly reported as scarring when it is in fact just normal healing. Doctors are mislead by patients because electrologists don't educate the patient thoroughly about normal skin reaction, thus doctors end up not knowing what they should. If they have a Fraxel laser, then it's all the more reason to make some money off the patient to fix the electrolysis "scarring" when in fact, it most likely would have resolved on its own anyway. Whew.
Posted by: Jacksandmarbles

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/24/09 04:29 AM

Thanks Vickie!!!
That was the information I was looking for.

In response to James comment:
"Actually, most doctors when asked do say something like, "Electrolysis doesn't work and it leaves scars on your skin."

That is simply not true and you must not know that many doctors to be making such bold and irrational statements.

In response to dfahey's comment:
I agree with what you are saying about patient feedback. A doctor is usually not also an electrologist so of course there are things that they may not know about electrolysis, just like electrologists aren't doctors and would not know how to properly diagnose patients. I do, however; disagree with electrolysis not causing scarring. I went to a very bad electrologist who not only removed way too much hair from my hairline but left scars on my forehead. It's been two years and I still have hyper-pigmentation and pitting on my forehead and I have been taking very good care of my skin. This is not something that is going to go away on it's own. I have now found a very good electrologist so I know that they are definitely out there. So I guess the real question is, why are there so many licensed electrologist who are "below standards"?
Posted by: lefty2g , LE, CPE

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/24/09 05:37 AM

I HATE TO SHAKE UP YOUR WORLD, however, there are a number of subjects that require specialized schooling, state examinations followed with licensing that mandates continuous schooling to proove you maintained your education so that your license will remain valid and you should be up to date with the latest information to deliver the best care to your patients. Most lawyers did NOT pass the bar exam the first time. A significant number did not pass it the second time. To day there are more students in law school than there are lawyers in practice in this country.

There is a similar situation in medicine. All doctors did not graduate at the top of their class. Somewhere in this world there is the ABSOLUTE WORST DOCTOR IN THE WORLD, however, his patients seem to love him because they measure him by his personality, charisma, expensive suits, office decor, and the number of patients waiting in the waiting room every time you visit there. If you knew he graduated from medical school at the bottom of the class you would never return but you have no way to measure his medical ability.

We are at a complete loss to know how to size up a doctor's ability and medical acumen, consequently, we use the only measures we have open to us which have absolutely nothing to do with medical skills. There are too many incompetent doctors, lawyers etc. but we are at their murcy. Good luck.

Electrolysis is covered by insurance if it is part of a medical diagnosis. For instance..... when a woman visits a doctor for an infertility problem and she also has too much hair in male locations (belly, back, extremities, face, etc) she does not know the hair is a symptom of her hormonal problem . Also it is unethical to treat only one symptom of a condition that has 8-10 symptoms. If the extra hair is there it must be treated unless the patient refuses this. No real doctor wants to spend al day removing hair. It is not as satisfying as saving a life. Nor is it as rewarding, financially. It is still unethical for him to withhold information from you. I can understand if he said to patients,"I do not know how to do it but it can be done successfully by an experienced electrologist. I have patients who have done it.In addition, since it is part of your medical problem I will write a letter to the insurance company for you to state it is medically necessary". THAT IS A REAL DOCTOR.

EVERY TIME YOUR DOC SENDS IN THE INSURANCE FORM TO GET PAID (THEY NEVER FORGET THIS). HE HAS TO LIST THE DIAGNOSIS with the medical code. This comes from a code book called the ICD9 code book. There is a number for every medical disorder and procedure. The diagnosis is Dx (----), the treatment prescribed is Rx (-----). All these are listed on your computer. The ICD9 is used all over the world. Blue Cross, Blue shield has their own code book with different numbers, however, all diseases are listed with the treatments. If there are more than one treatment it will be listed under the proper code. And this is how you get reimbursed.
Posted by: Jacksandmarbles

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/24/09 07:54 PM

I'm not quite sure whose world your shaking up. But thanks for the information as it was very informative. I'm not quite sure what your point is since we have already established that there are good and bad doctors. In the end of the day no one would work without getting paid.
Posted by: lindagrindle

Re: Regrowth charts - 10/11/10 03:25 AM

This is very true...there are good and bad doctors out there just like there are good and bad people in every profession. Doctors are no different.
Posted by: MistyEE

Re: Regrowth charts - 03/11/11 06:50 PM

Hi Everyone, I had forgotten i had registered here a bit ago, as life sometimes gets in the way. I do want to say that all the pros here definitely seem to know their stuff...and saved me $500 I would have spent on Tria. smile

So the real question I have about these growth charts do the various removal processes affect them? Will a follicle switch modes when a hair is removed or does it run the course; would that depend on the removal type; or is the "time frame" something decided by genetics? Or is it possible like other genetic traits, (the susceptibility to ultra violet for example) some people have hair growth time that is more influenced by environment over physiological averages or vice versa? It seems that these charts may have been compiled with observable growth using the markers, etc...but without regard to the underlying genetics, but I amjust asking. I know absolutely nothing about the studies or the individuals performing them. Just trying to wrap my head around what they really mean. It would seem that you could base treatment on these because you are hoping to get the best results and because it is not feasible to determine clinically whether or not individuals would benefit from more frequent or less frequent, is that correct?

I am just wondering if in some individuals it would make sense to treat them at more customized intervals, for instance the person who mentioned the 160 hairs each week.

I am NOT a practitioner, or trying to rile anything.....just a person interested in what the experienced people think. And not looking to irritate anyone either! smile
Posted by: LAgirl

Re: Regrowth charts - 03/11/11 11:05 PM

How hair cycles work in general:

How long each cycle lasts by body area:

Genes can affect how long the hair grows and how fast it grows. But cycles still work in the same way.
Posted by: nokinjo

Re: Regrowth charts - 06/06/11 07:58 AM

What about taking additional proteins...If one works out and takes additional proteins, wouldnt that accelerate the speed of hair growth? This way would come out faster, hence accelerated treatment time...?
Posted by: James W. Walker VII

Re: Regrowth charts - 06/06/11 09:08 AM

you can't speed up the cycles. increasing the growth rate would not effect the cycle period, thus, no difference to the amount of time required for all hair to show itself at least once.
Posted by: coates

Re: Regrowth charts - 06/07/11 08:53 AM

I tried to find a timeline for butt hair but found nothing.

How long time does it generally take to permanently remove hair from butt? I do have a very hairy ass with long hairs but completely untouched...

Haie that are still under the skin, can they be treated before they come out?

what is the general experience with pores that contain multiple hairs? I have multiple hairs growing from single pore
Posted by: Philomena

Re: Regrowth charts - 05/30/12 09:43 AM

HiPhilomen, here how do you guys feel about shaving ? I Find
results are great when i work on clients whom are only shaving
greatits a breeze all those actively growing hairs .Results seem to amazing