I never said that ANYTHING an Electrologist says about Laser is "bashing". I say that bashing occurs when negatives are constantly highlighted and positives dismissed or ignored, and speculation about long term effects or mention of rare side effects are used as a scare tactic under the guise of "information" . I'm suprised you don't understand the way I'm describing Electrology's failed permanence in terms of someone not being able to endure the very nature of Electrology. This includes pain, time, trauma to the skin, regrowth, and money. You are hung up on the theory of it being permanent on an unfeeling robot, and not real life people. Some of which don't WANT a relationship with an Electrologist that goes on and on. Look, I appreciate what you and James have to say most of the time, but I think sometimes you guys repeat the facts as you want to hear them and not as they really are. A perfect example is the human vs. computer polls in last years college football season. The computers got it wrong because they were strictly looking at data fed into it. They could not see the defeat in the eyes of the Oklahoma players towards the end of the season, or take into account the mental trauma of a defensive cordinator taking another job before the season was over. The computer did not see momentum. The real fact is the person in the above post that I pasted is HAPPY with the LONG TERM results of Laser treatments, but for some reason all you Electrologists can say about that is it hasn't been "proven" to be permanent, or that she might get full regrowth 4 or 5 years down the road, or that it's rare. Hell, it hasn't been proven that Laser Doesn't cause cancer ( you can't prove a negative of course) Let's throw that out there every once in a while. And James can make little puns about Laser "burning" people and act all coy about how he's just joking around. It all adds up. This thread does not exist in a vaccum. I'm going to choose my words very carefully here. I've noticed certain Electrologists are not just pro- Electrology (which is fine with me), but also anti-Laser, and it colors every post they make. It is my opinion that at that point they are not offering information, but rather an agenda. Not so cool.

[ March 28, 2004, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: redhead ]

In hopes of not turning this into a huge debate, I would like to say that I think I can understand why Electrologists might feel the need to take Laser down befor presenting Electrology as an option. I do agree that it has been "oversold" in many cases, and it is not a "miracle cure". I guess in order to have people even consider Electrolosis's good qualities you might need to "unbrainwash" some consumers that could think Laser is better than it really is. I just think you guys cross a line sometimes, and that might not be in the consumers best interest. I will try not to bash Electrolgy or Electrologists, and if I come off that way I am sorry.

I'm beyond the debate issues, redhead. You and I have already done that in past threads, so no need to be redundant in this thread.

Speaking for myself only, any comments I have made about laser come forth strictly from observations and consumer comments over the last 8 years, NOT a personal agenda to promote electrolysis just because I am an electrologist. Published research on laser is of deep importance to me, if it can be determined that laser companies are not paying for the study.

I care about facts and results. Wherever those facts and results lead to, I will follow. I don't care if it's laser or any new topical or even genetic manipulation. If it is proven safe and effective for the consumer,it should be used to help them.

Enjoy your day.

Dee

Here is a recent post on another Forum that, I think gives a good overview of the pros and cons of Laser..... " I had my first treatment on my underarms 4 years ago. I had 6 full treatments done and I did them on a schedule of every 6 weeks. I have had 7 "touch up" treatments in addition to the first 6, but remember that is all I have had done in 4 years. My last treatment was July 2003. I probably have 5 to 8 hairs under each arm and they are so fine and light that I am o.k. with that. I have also had my bikini line done and it took about the same amount of treatments as my underarms. I have a few scattered hairs, but once again they are so few and fine that I am very pleased. I have had my full legs, feet and toes done and it only took 5 full treatments and about 3 touch ups. These areas are also virtually hairfree with a few scattered, fine hairs. My abdomen is totally hairfree and so are my breasts. These two areas have had no treatment in over 2 years. As you can see, I have had laser hair removal pretty much all over. Areas I didn't mention were my lip and chin. I only had a few hairs in these areas to begin with, but they are also totally cleared. As I mentioned, my last treatment anywhere on my body was last July. I will probably have a touch up this summer before I go on vacation. Once a year is o.k. with me. It was explained in detail to me before I started my treatments 4 years ago, that laser hair removal is actually reduction. My laser specialist was very honest about telling me that there would not be 100% hair removal. I understood it after she explained hair growth cycles and also all of the things that can cause hair growth, ie: puberty, pregnancy, menopause, medications, thyroid problems, adrenal problems and much more. So my advise would be to be very skeptical of the places that are advertising 100% of the hair gone in 6 treatments. I mean afterall, how can they control your hormones and such. I'm just very glad I went to the clinic I did. I have been extremely pleased and never felt that I was being sold a bill of goods. I know this is long, but I hope it helps." This consumer report brings up a lot of points you guys make, but somehow it seems a lot more positive when put in the context of an actual person, and not just FDA terminology. I think the way yb opened this discussion by poining out that Laser can cause hairgrowth is about as productive as a Laser tech poining out on every thread you guys post that Electrology can cause pitting scarring and dimpling. It is the way things are said and who is saying them that can be problematic for me.

I'm sorry I don't see the humour there, James. Can you explain to me how your "joke" is not merely a viscious wise crack about Laser. Based on everything you say about Laser, I don't see that as a joke, but yet another sign that you can't put Laser in it's proper perspective. That quip does not exist in a vacum. It wouldn't make any difference to me if you did not also insist on advising people as to the truth about Laser as if you are coming from a professional place. I wonder if you can have it both ways. The truth as you see it, James. I have an amazing sense of humor, and that is precisely why I don't "get" your joke.

[ March 29, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: redhead ]

When you say that a person who drops out of electrolysis before permanent removal can take place, because they don't finish the program, not because the treatment failed that it constitutes failure of electrolysis, your logic is as flawed as saying that a program of diet and exercise is flawed just because some people don't follow it, and therefore don't loose weight. Noncompliance to the proper program doesn't disprove the veracity of the program. The point is if you don't do the program, then you have not done the program, and your results don't characterize the expectations of the program that one did not comply with.

On another subject, my admitted bias is that while Electrolysis can deliver a reliable result given certain compliance, L.A.S.E.R. has trouble predicting just what any given individual can expect under any condition.
I am sure, however, that there is no need to restate myself any further than that here.

I hear your point, and agree with some of it. Perhaps I should say that most people can't follow a program that will lead to results with Electrolysis due to a myriad of reasons, many of which have to do with simply being a human being. Some can , some can't. What you just stated is a far cry from many of your innuendos about Laser in a lot of your posts. And the other side is that if Laser works well for someone it is a much better option on large areas then Electrology. If that's rolling the dice, you should at least admit there is a payoff if you win. What does any of this have to do with making a joke that you know will offend simply for your amusement. You can clearly see in your post that you KNEW it would be offensive, because in the very next sentence you launch an attack on those that might not appreciate it by insulting them by saying that they can't take a joke. To answer Dee's earlier question about what I percieve as Laser bashing, well that's a good example. I wonder if you still think I'm just imagining things?

redhead:

Thank you for addmitting that laser treatments are "a roll of dice". By the way, a roll of dice also implies payoff for the winners.

Now, can you explain the fact that no investment companies ever invest in casino gambling, but they rather opt for the stock market? It is simply because "rolling the dice" is irrational when trying to make a profit. They want to have more control over the situation, as well as a fair chance of winning.

Let's see now what is the payoff if one does get lucky and he benefits from laser. Up to 60% reduction (that's 0% to 60%) over some months and even years. No one can tell for sure how long. And what do you do with the rest of the hair in this ideal case? Hmm...

Now, what do you do if you're in the majority of people who experience more regrowth? And what if you don't benefit at all or benefit very little? Will you get your time and your money back?

Let's go back to your ideal case. Let's say that whatever laser places want you to believe has actually happened. Now you're 60% "smooth" for life. It can be all that you wanted, if you're male and you just wanted to reduce your chest hair. But most people seeking hair removal want it ALL off for life. So where do they go now? Do they go for electrolysis to finish up the job? But it is very likely that if they would have invested all that time and money in electrolysis to begin with, they would have been finished by now. For life. For sure. And no need to gamble and no need to get lucky.

To answer your claim that it is hard to finish electrolysis treatment:
It is unfortunate that you've had such an experience. You would have done better, if you would take the advice to find a better electrologist. Why didn't you ask James how many of his ex-clients with large area work are out there happy and smooth for life.

I know that you've invested a lot in laser. I hope you get "lucky" and benefit from it as much as possible, since hair reduction is all that you might want. I want to note, however, that we're talking to the average (most) consumers wanting permanent hair removal in the most efficient way.

I'm gonna say this clearly for you. I don't think that if you invested the TIME spent in Laser in Electrology that you'd have your chest done, you'd have your nipples done. I realize now that everything you say is just your opinion, and that you want a bunch of the negative Facts about Electrology to be overlooked, argued with, or mabey even removed from the "HAIRFACTS.COM" page, and likewise would want to add abunch of negative stuff about LASER and remove some positive FACTS because you aren't capable of SEEING them to be true. None of this would make any difference to me if you and James didn't post your OPINION as FACT on nearly every single post up and down this entire FORUM as if we should simply make all other opinions and facts comply with what you THINK. You contradict youself all the time. One of many examples is in one post you tout how your Doctor pal, or something you read, shows that the skin is much like the brain in that it is unknown a lot of time why it works in mysterious ways. You use this info to support your pet peeve about LASER causing unpredicable effects including hair GROWTH. Yet Electrology is perfect and predictable despite working on that very same skin. It never DOESN"T work when done "correctly", and pitting, scarring, and dimpling only happen by incompetence. SAYS YOU. You do this with almost every aspect of logic in your praise of Electrology and bashing of Laser. I'm not going to argue every point with you because your missing the BIG point. My opinion is that your temperment and attitude automatically disqualifies you from being an "authoritative" voice on this board. Until a directive comes down that you and James hold SWAY over this entire FORUM, and can ammend and warp facts to suit your opinions, then expect a lot of argument.