4th session and still HAIR!!!

I spoke to my technician today. Here are the exact settings/values for the Laserscope Lyra:

These are standard for my skin type which they have at III:

10mm; maximum 2 pulses per second; 39 joules; 50 milliseconds.

They might take me down to 5mm for better concentration.

Does this sound okay and can anyone make some sense from these numbers?

Fluence seems too low for your skin type.

5mm will bring worse, not better results! Penetration of laser will be lower with the smaller spot size.

IMHO you would be better off with a Lightsheer diode, or possibly a higher power YAG with larger spot size, such as the Coolglide CV.

RJC2001

I’ve not heard of the lightsheer. I’ve only used the Lyra as I described before. Can you tell us more about it? How does it differ from the others?

it’s a diode laser. lyra is a yag. it penetrates less deep than the yag, and is less safe for dark skin. it’s best for skin types I-IV, but you need test spots if you’re in the IV-V range. if your skin can handle 25 joules and higher settings, and hopefully shorter pulse, you can use a diode for better results. it’s just a more powerful laser. alex is the most powerful, but only safe up to skin types III, diode is next up for skin types up to IV or so, and if you’re much darker, yag is the only safe option to avoid burns. but unfortunately, Yags are not great on finer hair.

Okay. I’m back to report my follow-up treatments and experience. It’s now been a year and I have completed a total of 9 treatments in that time.

Although I can definitely see results in the LESSENING of hair in the treated areas, it is by no means 100% gone.

The technician has tried different settings, still using the Lyra (yag) laser by increasing the joules and decreasing the width at times to 5mm.

The most stubborn areas: upper arms, buttocks, back of neck, back, shoulders.

The area that has seemed to respond best was the front of neck; I don’t get ingrown hairs any longer.

The facility has changed during this time, but the technician is the same from the beginning and has been very patient & responsive to my needs. The new place has also cut my usual treatment fee 50% to accomodate me for continuing treatments.

LA girl - I know you mentioned earlier this year that 6 wasn’t enough to get what I wanted, but I’m at 9 going onto 10 now!

Will there ever be an end or have I reached the point at which further laser treatment of any kind will no longer be effective given my stubborn genetics?

I’m not giving up; I just want to know if there’s anything else you or anyone else could suggest to get more effective treatment.

Laserman-
I’ve had 5 tx on similar areas. I’ve asked the same questions with vague answers. Such as…

-If you’ve treated at 8-10wk intervals then that is wrong and you need to treat at 4-5 month intervals.
-If you’ve treated at 4-5 month intervals you need to be treated at 8-10 wk intervals.
-Your settings were too weak and need to do more treatments at different settings…increase spot size, decrease pulsewidth, increase joules, try different laser etc.
-Your laser tech is not good so try around for a different one.
-Your areas are stubborn and may need more treatments.
-Check with your M.D. for hormonal problems.

IT IS YOUR DECISION. I am doubting you’ll get any other answer than the above listed. It seems no expert ever wants to give up or say it won’t work for you anymore than it already has. Just my opinion.

I am doubting you’ll get any other answer than the above listed. It seems no expert ever wants to give up or say it won’t work for you anymore than it already has. Just my opinion.

I seem to recall giving you some specific answers to questions you asked. Unfortunately, my private response is gone so I can’t post my response to you. My memory is that I gave you specific answers but with the caveat that since I can’t see you my answers had to be somewhat generic.

The problem with your comment is that you are confusing expertise with the opinions of people who have little experience but still insist on making comments.

For example, I told you that I felt that 8 weeks between treatments on your back was too short. That you would be better served with treatments spaced a lot farther out. And that your treatments on the Cynosure 9300 though good is not as good for that site as the Candela Alex. Now you are welcome to accept my opinion or to take someone elses’, but given that I’ve been doing this since July 1997 and my company has done over 350,000 treatments, I would think that my opinion would weigh heavier that someone who would insist that you would be better served with shorter intervals. Believe who you want but don’t imply that you can’t get an honest answer here or that no one is willing to be frank.

As far as the treatment with lyra. That is a lousy laser. Not very powerful or effective. The original lyra came with a 7 mm spot size and was the laser that a research scientist used to prove that the 7 mm spot size was not large enough to penetrate deep enough to effectively kill hair. This scientist made his presentation at the ASLMS (1999 I think) to an audience of about 20 people. I was in that audience. Interestingly, that morning there were about 500 people at a morning session to hear a round table about how to do laser hair removal. But none of these people, to include the luminaries in the field who give all the talks, thought it important enough to attend this important presentation. The point being that most people don’t pay much attention to the underlying science or really understand what is happening. Which explains why so much bogus information is floating around.

Even the current Lyra is bad. It doesn’t have enough power to allow the laser to independently set the pulsewidth from the power. What this means is that this laser doesn’t do a great job of effectively treating finer hair. Do some people get good results? Yes, especially on bikinis. But on the average it is probably the least effective YAG laser on the market. Which is why your results with the Lyra aren’t really working.

I was not questioning your knowledge or motivation. I respect your insight on this topic and appreciate your answers.
“vague answers” may have been a little harsh.

My point to laserman is it seems there are never ending solutions if someone is having laser done and it does not seem to be working. There are conflicting viewpoints on this site as to treatment parameters. Motivations of laser centers are at times questionable. A person can follow expert advise and may still be disappointed in laser and then ask why…never to get the straight forward answer of it does not work for you so stop wasting your money on it.

I am going to continue laser treatments according to your advise with 10 treatments my limit. Treatments should end eventually otherwise isn’t it like laser shaving? OK, I apologize for that last comment.

sslhr - so I take it you suggest at this point to stop doing the lyra and try a different laser? I’m thinking that as well. It’s been long enough to evaluate the results or lack thereof. We’ve tried different joule and spot settings enough.

The only thing I notice is that different settings do cause a little stinging and the momentary odor of burnt hair. Whether or not that means it’s effective in getting rid of hair, I don’t know. I know that for me, I’m more sensitive to the freezing cold tip of the laser than to the laser beam itself.

But how do I know the lyra is ‘lousy’ other than your opinion? The Lyra was and still is the one suggested for my skin type - at least at this clinic.

Therefore, what laser do you suggest I seek then given my stats which are below and why? You mention a ‘Candela Alex’ which I’ve never heard of.

Specifically, what laser then does allow the laser to independently set the pulsewidth from the power?

LHR seems to be a hit and miss technology and not an exact science. Whose advice can I trust in and where can I do my own research?

About me: Male, white, olive-skinned, 46, brown hair.
Skin Type: Between a 3 and 4.
Treatment: Full back, buttocks, upper arms, neck; every 6-8 weeks.

I am going to continue laser treatments according to your advise with 10 treatments my limit. Treatments should end eventually otherwise isn’t it like laser shaving? OK, I apologize for that last comment.

Unfortunately, there are no easy answers. And I will make the point that laser hair removal is probably the most difficult laser procedure to be successful. At least, it is more difficult than resurfacing. Resurfacing is more dangerous but the results are easier. LHR is difficult and not an exact science but more an art.

Good luck and keep the intervals quite wide. Plus, please take some good photos before so that you can at least tell if you are making progress. Also, I would suggest that you ask the technician to be extremely careful on overlap, ensuring the most overlap as possible in the treatments. Good luck.

The only thing I notice is that different settings do cause a little stinging and the momentary odor of burnt hair. Whether or not that means it’s effective in getting rid of hair, I don’t know.

What is most important is whether there is perifollicular edema, in other words, whether the area around each hair follicle gets raised up and reacts to the laser. Should last minutes to hours. The odor means nothing.

But how do I know the lyra is ‘lousy’ other than your opinion?

You don’t. You are just going to have to decide who you want to believe.

Therefore, what laser do you suggest I seek then given my stats which are below and why? You mention a ‘Candela Alex’ which I’ve never heard of.

Specifically, what laser then does allow the laser to independently set the pulsewidth from the power?

Almost all the alexandrites are powerful enough to independently set the power. But in the YAGs (the lyra is a YAG), only the Cutera, Cynosure, and Candela YAGs are powerful enough. Of the three, the Candela is the best. How do I know? I’ve actually owned two or more of each. Whether you believe me is your choice.

LHR seems to be a hit and miss technology and not an exact science. Whose advice can I trust in and where can I do my own research?

About me: Male, white, olive-skinned, 46, brown hair.
Skin Type: Between a 3 and 4.
Treatment: Full back, buttocks, upper arms, neck; every 6-8 weeks.

Hit and miss? Not exactly, but it is very difficult. Far more difficult than most people suspect when first getting involved in it (on the provider side). And there are a lot of people selling stuff that doesn’t work very well. For example, there are a lot of home units for sale to remove hair in one form or fashion. Many of them are bogus. Why would you think that it isn’t also true in the more expensive units. That well meaning (and sometimes not so well meaning) people get sucked in is just par for the course in a brand new industry that hasn’t shaken itself out yet.

Finally, spread your treatments more than 8 weeks for those sites.

What is most important is whether there is perifollicular edema, in other words, whether the area around each hair follicle gets raised up and reacts to the laser. Should last minutes to hours. The odor means nothing.

That has only happened on the front of my neck and only in the first few sessions; I haven’t experienced that since. Does that mean it’s not effective then?

great comments by sslhr. I should add that I’ve mentioned consistently that Lyra is not a very good Yag laser especially due to its small spot size. I always recommend to find a clinic with a better Yag whenever someone mentions that’s the laser they’re using. Yes, at a point, if you’re not seeing a difference, it will not change. Something is wrong with the current procedure. Also, laser hair removal will never give you 100% removal. I also say this every time I feel someone has that assumption and list that in the FAQs. And, the areas that are especially hard to treat are upper arms and shoulders. If those areas are not working to a point, I suggest using electrolysis there.

thanks sslhr for helping out in this thread.

I am in Las Vegas. Where can I find a clinic that uses the Candela Yag laser???

Candela GentleLASE Alexandrite or GentleYag ND:Yag:

http://www.candelalaser.com/patients/index.cfm?task=practSearch

lagirl - you mentioned previously:

“alex is the most powerful, but only safe up to skin types III, diode is next up for skin types up to IV or so, and if you’re much darker, yag is the only safe option to avoid burns. but unfortunately, Yags are not great on finer hair.”

If I’m a between a 3 and 4, then wouldn’t the Candela, being an alexandrite, be too intense and burn me? As I recall now, this is primarily why the Lyra was suggested. We played it safe, but yet now I can say it was only minimally effective.

What size spot is the Candela as compared to the Lyra?

Also - not to get on your case - but you mention that you always recommend to find a clinic with a better Yag than the Lyra whenever someone mentions that’s the laser they’re using.

That being said, why didn’t you bring that up when I originally began this thread and mentioned I was using the Lyra (see first post) almost a year ago?

Lastly, I’m assuming the Candela GentleLASE Alexandrite & the GentleYag ND are different names for the same laser, correct?

Thanks for the referral source, by the way.

I just looked up the conversation and the reason that I stated that you should try 2 more treatments is because you said you were seeing results after 3 treatments and I suggested that you might need 2 more treatments to really see if there is a result because at treatment 4 you might just be seeing hair synchronizing, which is normal, and not necessarily lack of results.

"About me: Male, white, olive-skinned, 46, brown hair.

Treatment: Full back, buttocks, upper arms, neck; every 4-6 weeks.

I have had 4 treatments using the Lyra laser which is supposed to work on all skin color types. After the first 2 treatments, I seemed to react well, as the hair that did grow back took much longer and was more sparse and lighter in color, but now, after my 4th session, is it my imagination that my hair is coming back stronger? Was the initial positive reaction perhaps only a temporary “shock” and now I’ve, in effect, become immune, and there is no more to gain from any more sessions, so I’ve been scammed, er what?"

Here’s some suggestions that I made previously.

"2. you’re using a Yag laser, which only works best on the very coarse hairs. also, you have light skin and dark hair, so you should be using an alex or a diode for best results. using a Yag will also overall make you have more treatments.

  1. this laser has a small spot size of 10mm, so there is a larger probability of missing hairs, which means those will be coming back, making you have more treatments overall."

Based on the information you just provided above and your current questions, here is what my course of action would be:

  • Skin types are not 100% accurate, they’re used to approximately figure out how dark you are relative to others. Obviously, there are many shades in between and sometimes someone can look lighter and actually have more underlying pigment than first visible and vice versa.

  • If you’re in between type III and IV in your opinion, I would try the GentleLASE first. Those are not the same lasers. GentleLASE is an alexandrite and GentleYAG is a Yag type laser, both made by Candela Corporation. GentleYag is same type as Lyra (both Yags), BUT with a much bigger spot size (15/18mm vs 7mm-10mm). The link above is to their provider search where you can type in your zip code and get nearby recommendations. I would also use the search feature on all the forums.

  • GentleLASE is most effective and powerful, so that should be your first choice. However, you will need to go for a few consultations and have a few test spots to see how high of settings your skin can handle. The highest spot size is 18mm on it and the highest joules at that spot size is 20. At 15mm, the highest joules setting is 30 (Lyra’s highest spot size is 7mm-10mm as sslhr mentioned above). You should be aiming to get treated at the highest joules and spot combination possible. If you can safely be treated at at least 18 joules on 18mm or 25 joules at 15mm, I would definitely stick with this laser. Please read Saf’s experiences. He was first told that he was a type IV I believe, but tried the GentleLASE and saw that his skin handles these settings just fine.

  • Also, be aware that the upper arm and shoulder area would still be difficult to treat with laser in general, even with the best laser.

  • Most importantly, please read the FAQs that I wrote. When I answer questions and provide the link to them, I assume that people will read it so that I don’t have to repeat the same thing so many times. Thus, I tend to skip some of the information I already outline there in some of my responses. It contains all of the information I specified above. Here’s the link again and they’re also on a sticky thread on this forum: www.hairremovalforum.com/faq.cfm

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the great response, lagirl. I have already found a couple clinics in my area that have these lasers. I shall followup!

So I finally went to a clinic in my area that has both the Candela lasers, Ideal Image.

Nice facility, and very professionally run, but hella expensive compared to my last clinic - and by twice as much per session.

[Approx. $1400 per session to back, shoulders, arms, neck, and buttocks].

They did a test patch on the neck and back using their GentleLase Alexandrite. It seemed much more powerful than the Lyra just by the stinging sensation, although I don’t know if that’s a way to tell. Setting for this laser was 18 joules on 18mm. How does this compare to the setting with the Lyra: 10mm; maximum 2 pulses per second; 39 joules; 50 milliseconds??? Wouldn’t 39 joules be more intense - or is it because the Lyra is a different laser altogether and is like comparing apples and oranges, thus the joule setting is irrelevent amongst various lasers?

The bottom line then is really not cost if it’s a true case of getting what you pay for, right? It is whether starting all over with a new clinic - after having done over a year of prior laser treatment and all for nothing - will finally produce the results I seek.

The question is: How can I determine whether or not starting all over will be worth it BEFORE investing another big chunk of $$$ and time? Can I really determine anything from the test patch, other than whether I reacted well or not?

I am at a loss as to what to do. The 9 or so treatments with the Lyra left me skeptical that LHR works at all - at least with respect to me.

Also - what is the reputation and experiences of others who’ve used the Ideal Image clinics before?

Not surprising that you didn’t get good results with the Lyra. It is a very underpowered YAG.

There is a rough correlation between different lasers with 39 joules on the YAG being equivalent to about 13 or so joules on the Alex. About a 3 to 1 relationship. So 18 joules on the alex would be a little over 50 or so joules on the YAG.

Ideal Image uses a good laser system but they charge a lot of money. There are other providers who use Candelas and charge far less.

Hey LASERMAN, Good Luck! And please keep posting your results with the Alexandrite Gentlase Laser!!