Jayne, since you’re new, I should point out as Chuck will probably too, that he had numerous laser treatments on this area and it didn’t work, so that’s why he’s seeking electrolysis. Also, he has his location indicated as Kansas City.
Yeah, I’m in the midwest. I’m going to wait a couple more weeks before I make a post if I think it is “working yet” because if I would of plucked the hairs I would have the same results as of now probably. I have spots that really haven’t been touched much, and it has been about 8 weeks since I’ve had treatment. Once I hit the 10-11 week mark and there is less hair. I think that I will be seeing permanent reduction.
I know that flash and microflash are thermolysis too, but I guess I should refer to the “thermolysis” as manual thermolysis. The needle is in the follicle for about 2 seconds. I can tell you, it seems to be working alot better than the flash and microflash but it’s kind of too early to tell.
Tell me a little more about blend? Is it slower than manual thermolysis? I am getting manual thermolysis done by a Clareblend Ultrablend machine, kind of older. The other is an Apilus machine.
I’ve already blown over ten thousand dollars on all sorts of lasers, so I think I’ll hold off for now on that.
Hi there,
There are hundreds of dormant regenerative hair cells (also called germinative hair cells) embedded in skin and the follicular wall that surrounds the hair. Think of them as dormant ‘seedling’ hair cells, the electrologist can’t see them with the naked eye to remove them and they have no pigment to absorb the laser light, so they remain somewhat undisturbed with laser treatments. When you have either laser or electrolysis treatments blood will rush to the area to heal the damaged tissue of the follicles that were treated with laser. This circulating blood will carry with it nutrients, oxygen and hormones to the area in which the follicle wall and nourishing papilla resides. The hormones carried by the blood will stimulate the growth of these dormant ‘seedling’ or germinative hair cells. Once stimulated germinative hair cells can form into mature follicles and produce a mature hair. This can happen in areas outlying the treated areas. This peripheral hair is finer than the original and wouldn’t be much trouble to destroy with either laser or electrolysis. If they very fine then laser light will not be absorbed by the melanin within the hair since there is not enough of it.
First of all, I have never heard of increased hair growth due to elctrolysis. If it ever has occured, the frequency of incidence is below statistical significance. That is, such a low occurance combined with such a high number of individuals experiencing electrolysis doesn’t show a convincing connection. But as for Laser induced hairgrowth, that occurs to such a degree that more basic research has been conducted as to find out why. The references are listed here on this very Hairfacts site (Andrea does her legwork!)…
Ye JN, Prasad A, Trivedi P, Knapp DP, Chu P, Edelstein LM Pili bigeminy induced by low fluence therapy with hair removal alexandrite and ruby lasers. Dermatologic Surgery 1999 Dec;25(12):969.
As for the idea of increased blood flow causing pili proliferation, could you please direct us to your sources? There is a multi-million dollar industry around trying to get hair to proliferate and they would gladly benefit from such a simplex concept. Afterall, the head is one of the hottest regions on the body, and men suffering from baldness would like to know why. Also, The lower arms and legs are cooler extremities, yet have more hair than the upper arms and legs.
Increased blood circulation doesn’t just occur with laser, it occurs with rashes and other forms of irritation, sunburn, injury, and infection, yet this increase in circulation, that is equal or greater to that caused by a laser, does not cause increased hair growth. So I’m not so sure that is the answer…
More likely, it has to do with the denaturation of regulatory/operator proteins or operon binding sites. That could be why vellus hairs suddenly turn into terminal hairs in peripheral areas adjacent to laser treatment. They are receiving the same hormonal messages, same as the other older terminal hairs, that they previously ignored, but now they have the ability to respond to such chemical messengers. That would indicate a binding site activation.
Something along these lines…
These lines…
Or this…
Promoting Follicle Growth in Transplants
Not quite so simple as increased blood, and indicating damage to sub-cellular mechanisms that are barely understood as it is.
Mantaray
In electrolysis peripheral hair growth does occur, no one really mentions it, that’s all.
Jayne
Electrologist since 1990
Connecticut
Oh bummer. Anyway, numerous laser treatments that don’t work?
If the laser technicians is skilled then she/he wouldn’t sell the treatments unless it actually does work, right?
I don’t. Laser light is absorbed by melanin in thicker, darker hairs.
I’m wondering if the hair was fine brown, red or had blonde roots, i.e.: too little melanin to absorb the laser light energy.
there are plenty of clinics that will treat anyone who walks in the door, as long as they’re paying.
Hmmm. I know I’ve never seen any electrolysis induced hair growth, done on myself, or of my own electrolysis. My electrologist has never heard of it, and another pro I know down here in San Diego has never seen it. With electrolysis going on since 1875, I figure there would be some clinical data on it from a reputable research facility. Has any of the electrolysis pros here ever seen it on a justifiable basis? It’s not mentioned in any reputable literature, nor has anybody that I remember ever posting about that, and several thousands browse these boards. If it did occur, it would be mentioned. Laser clients on the other hand, mention this with increasing frequency, both past and present. This is why there are studies being done to determine why laser can make some more fuzzy with hair and causes an annular ring pattern of increased growth adjacent to treated areas.
The mechanism for induced hair growth is far more complex than increased circulation to the skin. Far, far more complex. What is your understanding of regulator/ operon mechanisms in the protein activation affinity threshold sense?
Mantaray
It’s not the laser technicians fault. I’ve been to about 10 different ones. That is a pretty big sample size, I think it depends on the person. I have no doubts that laser can work on some people, but I think some people are just screwed. I have 300% more hair on the upper arms and shoulders than before I started, I don’t know what to tell you. I only had a few areas that had kind of darkish hair, it wasn’t very bad at all, but then wham. I’m talking about over a course of a year it sprouted out of no where, it wasn’t even gradual.
I don’t understand the skill of laser treatments. It does not take skill, it takes knowledge. If you know what levels of energy, what hand pieces, and to get your equipment maintenanced…all you do is put the wand end on the skin and push a button. I mean literally that is all you do.
Chuck, Did you know that although a doctor is required on site in some states, the users learn to operate the laser on a weekend course/ workshop that is given by the laser manufacturer? It’s true. There is no school for it. It’s just a workshop. They really aren’t even considered ‘Technicians’ (or ‘Tech’s’), they’re just ‘Operators’. In San Diego there has been a decrease in places offering laser hair removal. It simply doesn’t work for many people. It just takes their money.
Mantaray
I agree with Mantaray that laser-induced hair growth is far more complicated. I don’t really know what causes it, and I don’t think anyone really knows yet. Operon binding sites is as good a place to start as any. But I have never really seen vellus hair turn into terminal hair. Even where new terminal hair sprouts there is still vellus hair. My impression is that it is new hair that was dormant, rather than vellus hair that has lost its regulatory mechanisms.
The article that was quoted was really looking at a different issue, which is seeing multiple hairs from a single follicle, which is also quite common in the first couple treatments. At least that is my memory of that article. When I’ve seen laser induced hair growth, it is one hair per follicle.
I don’t know how much research is actually being done on the underlying mechanism of this. I will be at the ASLMS conference in three weeks. I’ll ask around a report back.
There are two parts to laser hair removal. There is the technical skill in knowing how to operate the equipment. And you are absolutely right, it isn’t that difficult.
Then there is the judgment skill of knowing how to treat. And that is far, far more complicated that people realize. For example, the number of variables to be considered are much greater than just spot size, pulsewidth, and power density. Unfortunately, this is where most people fall down. This is why people state that there is about a 5-10% failure rate in laser hair removal. It’ s because most people respond well and a small percentage respond poorly. With the right technique, understanding, and equipment, that failure rate can be brought down to much a much smaller number, though it probably will never be zero. And the manufacturers are really not much help because they really don’t know either. Especially the smaller ones.
And very little research is being done on laser hair removal because the money has moved on to other areas of research, such as wrinkle reduction.
You know what would be interesting; would be a biopsy of your arm where all the hair has grown and where you have had 30 some treatments. It would be interesting to see if there were any destroyed hair follicles. They can be seen in a biopsy.
Just out of curiosity, what lasers have you used?