You are omitting this statement from Jenny Sand –
“I think I am lucky in having a light beard to start with, a friend of mine used 21 hours in total on her first clearing - and that was after getting rid of all dark beard with laser first.”
Taking that into consideration, James is faster.
Well the other advantages E-3000 have are that they give painkilling injections and have two people work on you at the same time so its worth traveling long distances because you know you can tolerate 10 hours straight to make it worth it. Either way, I can’t afford too many hours with James or with E-3000, but its still worth checking how speeds compare. Per James, Fino Gior is also super fast.
I think Fino has retired, but maybe he takes a few special cases now??? People have reported his kids are great.
Per James. “I am not the fastest electrologist who ever lived, however, the overwhelming majority of my clients require NO pain management other than avoiding caffeine, drinking water, and getting a good night’s sleep. This in addition to most male beards getting first clearance in 10 to 25 hours depending on the person stands up very well against anyone.”
One of my clients posted on here about making the trip from Florida to me after having many sample treatments in that state, and not thinking it possible that a male beard could be removed in one person’s lifetime, but when we got working, I cleared the whole thing in 13 hours performed in less than 24 hours, and the client took some time to enjoy the Buffalo Niagara sights, and still went home early. Some people obviously have endured 10 hours just fine while watching DVD’s and cat-napping. Subsequent clearances took less time, and were done farther apart. In the end, the client finished in Florida, as it only took the locals 30 minutes to maintain what we started.
It is too bad that you can’t get to enjoy the ministrations of the staff at E-2000/E-3000 nor James Walker, Either or both might have given you a very happy result and resolved your situaiton in an economical and very easy to maintain way.
As it is, we can only say "Thank heavens somepeople are getting permanent hair removal in less than a lifetime and without paying enough to buy a house in The Hamptons. Is this a bad thing?
While we are on the subject, let’s just say it. I am often accused of being a “self-promoter”. Well, what else is there? Do you think Dr. Tim Johnson started doing TV appearances so he could tell you medican trivia? No, it was a promotional tool. Do you sometimes get good information while he is doing it? Hey, look at that, yes you do! Same here.
The strange thing is that many of the people who start out as James Haters eventually come around to admitting that I gave them good information to begin with, and many professionals start adopting the methods that I explain here, and both their clients and their businesses benefit for it. sounds like a good thing for the world to me.
Okay, I had two clearings at E3000 (when it was still E2000), so I can speak from personal experience. I read the other thread. Jenny’s experience was VERY, VERY unusual. A total clearance in 13.5 hours and a second in 12 hours? She states that is total operator hours, i.e. 6 per operator. I am sorry, but, she has got to be a very exceptional case for E2000.
Don’t get me wrong, my experience with E2000 was good. It was the best decision based on the information I had at the time and I lived in Texas. That said, an issue that I have with them is the unrealistic numbers they quote. That last time I checked, their website says they can completely clear a face in 70-90 hours. I think these numbers (for them) would be highly unusual.
I have known SEVERAL girls that have gone to E2000 (again, most prior to the sale). None of them have reached total clearance in under 125-150 hours. I have spoken to at least one that had well above that even. The more typical initial clearance I have heard in the transgender community is closer to 40-55 hours with them, not 13.5.
My personal experience was that I had several sessions of diode laser prior to E2000. I had about 40 hours with them in two partial clearings (not even close to full clearances). I am now doing GentleLase (have had four sessions). Once I get the dark hair under control, I will go back to electrolysis (maybe sooner).
All of the hours I had at E2000 were flash thermolysis. I thought that at the time that was their typical modality. I am not sure how to gauge how fast their insertions were, but, I would guess at least a couple seconds per hair. They would zap each hair/follicle twice. If they were going a few seconds per hair total with insertion included, that would put them at about 300-400 hairs per hour. This sounds much more reasonable based on my experience and that of virtually everyone I have known that has gone there.
As I said, my experience with them was pretty positive. If a person has limited time and wants to get to to full clearance fast, they are a great option if you can afford them (which I found that I couldn’t). The staff is very kind and friendly. They do offer the lidocaine injections which some think decreases pain. I am not sure, with the advances in equipment, whether the injections are really needed if one was to go to a place with modern equipment. Additionally, the injections themselves are horrendously painful. Almost anyone that has been there, will verify that.
I would probably opt in the future to go somewhere with more current equipment, a faster speed, and better price (they are, after all $105/hour). I still think that they were the best choice for me personally at the time though.
Hi, I am a client of James Walker. I went to James from Hawaii in early 2005 for my first beard clearance. I heard about him through Hairtell. I chose James at the time over E-2000/E-3000 and canceled my appointments with them because he was able to show me pictures of his work and put me in touch with happy finished clients. I was in a hurry to get through the first clearance and hoped I could dream of easy maintenance and fast completion. (Yes, I flew from Hawaii to Buffalo New York on a regular schedule) I have subsequenly had 5 full clearances with him at the proper intervals. 95% of all the hair has been permanently removed and I saved a lot of money over what I would have paid in Texas.
When I made my decision to see James, it was important to me that he was using the latest technology. I have been to other electrologists and i am very pleased that he used the microflash thermolysis to achieve the first 5 full clearances. I feel that this technique assisted him in both speed of removal as well as minimalizing any damage to the skin surrounding the folicle. I have no visable damage to the skin after 5 intense periods of treatment. (James has the pictures privately he can share upon request)
I flew in and stayed for a week. In that time we cleared the whole face and most of the neck in between sight seeing excursions. (you got to see Niagara Falls, the largest city hall on earth, eat real buffalo wings where they were created and so on) My hair growth was severe. I was told in the 450 to 500 hairs per square inch category. James achieved the clearance in about 6-7 hours a day and with only advil for pain. No injections were needed as the pain from the treatment was annoying but not severe. (upper lip at the lip line is the exception, but most people don’t have hair “in the paint”)
I did a package, and after 5 Clearances and 95% reduction was a bargain! Now, I am using a local elecrologist for a few stays once in a while because it does not make sense to fly across the county for what I now clear locally in 2 hours work using blend. Yes, James is excellent and I am very lucky that i was willing to take a chance. It proved the best investment I could have ever made.
I should clarify again, it is hard to say the number of hairs per hour. When I say 300-400, I mean including insertions, zapping the hair once, then a second time (sometimes a third), pulling the hair out, moving to the next hair, etc… I was already partially clear and in my first couple days of about twenty hours total, they didn’t even get me half clear. Again, this is just my experience and it is very hard for me to say (because I am not a professional) how many hairs per hour it was.
Okay, so it seems that some of you guys think that 700 hairs / minute is very fast while some are thinking that it is not so fast. To me, it seems very fast, but just to get an idea, how fast is the average electrologist? I always thought between 200 and 300 hairs / minute.
Is that a typographical error? You said 700 hair/ minute and 200 - 300 hairs / minute. If you mean 700 hairs per hour and the average being 200 to 300 hairs per minute, then you would be correct. Most people are getting between 100 to 300 hairs per hour at their electrolysis office. The reason for the difference is techniques, visual aids and automation.
Someone using any kind of thermolysis will usually treat more hairs per hour than anyone using blend or galvanic. Someone doing single shot MicroFlash, or PicoFlash will usually be getting more hairs per hour than someone doing 3 shots per hair style thermolysis. Anyone using an autosensor should naturally become faster than anyone foot tapping in manual mode.
Put another way, my speed would drastically fall through the floor if I had to treat one hair at a time while working with a 1950’s Kree machine looking through a simple magnifying glass lense, while tapping a foot pedal.
Maverick- For comparison, how many hours did your first clearance take? What about subsequent clearances and total hours? As far as E2000, I am not sure what equipment they use. I know they told me it was flash thermolysis. The epilator they used definitely was not computerized. When the anesthetic would start wearing off, the amount of pain was pretty severe.
The epilators at E-2000/E-3000 are “slow thermolysis machines” and could be described as something between the Instantron Tronco 4 SS-69’s and the Instantron Elite Spectrum. These are all good working machines that will last a lifetime. They are not computerized, and require the operator to work the foot pedal and to tap the pedal 2 to 5 times per hair. Those of us who have worked with microflash and pico flash machines would consider this set up a little “sparky”.
As for Maverick, it is best to describe what we did as the equal to removing two beards from one person, as the amount of hair required to remove to get the desired result was double what most of my beard clients start out with. (and my average client is already starting out with 3 to 5 times as much hair as the average male beard is said to have) We did 27 hours to remove the full face, under the chin, and the neck down to the end of the Adam’s apple the first clearance, and 20 hours to reclear the entire area, and strip the untouched portion below the Adam’s apple and establish a hair line behind the ears the second time out. From there, the time spent on the face and neck steadily decreased, and we spent more time on body work as we went along.
Had Maverick had a beard a little closer to normal, we would have gotten to first clearance in 10 to 15 hours, but hey, would you really be coming to me if all one had was a normal beard? I consider normal beards to be a paid vacation. Actually, if most of my clients had the beard that my text book told me I would see in my practice I would be buzzing through first clearances in 4 to 5 hours. Of course, one rarely sees these types of beards in the electrolysis office, because those guys don’t usually have problems shaving that make them seek electrolysis.(100 hairs per square inch over 25 square inches equals 2500 hairs, with little to none on the neck divided by 700 hairs per hour gets first clearance in 3 hours 40 minutes and total clearance in 41 to 62 hours - I rarely see this type of client.)
Maverick’s hairs were all blonde, clear, and “dirty blonde” so LASER would have been pretty useless in this case, and when you already have twice the facial hair as most men, you don’t even want to think about doing anything that may cause increased thickness, or stimulate new growth.
As for sensation, Maverick had a few things going against comfort in the beginning. First off, hairs that were growing in the area that most women put lipstick on. Our industry term for that is “hairs in the paint” for that reason. These hairs are obviously more sensitive to treat, as one is not even working the upper lip anymore, one is actually removing hairs from the actual lip! The second thing is that in the beginning we were treating hundreds of hairs very close together, and the histamine reaction builds up, and so, one might want to use some OTC pain meds, or at least an antihistamine for that reason. In later clearances, there were not as many hairs as close together and so those things were no longer issues.
Maverick is a perfect example of one of my clients who would have spent months (years?) trying to get to first clearance at any electrologist near the client, but who was able to actually SAVE MONEY and time by flying in to visit me. Some even come for first and second clearance, and use their local talent to keep them bare after that.
My average client (who we already said has more hair than the average man to begin with) is done in 100 to 150 hours.
In all fairness to E-200/E-3000, I think everyone should understand that for some reason, the transgendered people also seem to grow more facial hair than the average male, and so while the text books talk of men with 100 hairs per square inch, most Trans-Girls present with no less than 250 hairs per square inch and frequently 500 hairs per square inch at the outset. Could E-2000/E-3000’s 70 to 90 hour figure be a quote for the mythical “normal male beard” that I see so little of?
Thanks for the detailed explanation James… that makes sense. And yes, it was a typo, I meant 700 hairs / hour not per minute.
Hi James:
You said:
“In all fairness to E-200/E-3000, I think everyone should understand that for some reason, the transgendered people also seem to grow more facial hair than the average male, and so while the text books talk of men with 100 hairs per square inch, most Trans-Girls present with no less than 250 hairs per square inch and frequently 500 hairs per square inch at the outset. Could E-2000/E-3000’s 70 to 90 hour figure be a quote for the mythical “normal male beard” that I see so little of?”
Just from personal experience James, we come in varying degrees
of hairiness. I have known some with very little facial hair
and some with extreme hairiness as you described. Mine probably took about 150 hours in total after first getting laser.
I’m sure you have dealt with some extremely hairy trans clients,
but I don’t think trans people are hairier that the average.
Alicia
I have only ever had one Transgendered person who I was able to finish in 60 hours. As stated, from what I have seen in my office, the norm is 250 hairs per square inch and up. Of course, those with less have been younger, and may have started hormones earlier.
To be sure, I really don’t believe the 100 hairs per square inch figure holds much water, based on how few times I have seen it on anyone. I have teen clientw who have more than that. Of course, I could be wrong. After all, I only see people who want to get rid of their hair, not people who are satisfied with what they have and think shaving is good enough for them.
That is a lot of great information, James. Thank you. I think 27 hours for first clearance sounds good to me. As you say, the benefit to getting to first clearance fast is huge. The local electrologists I have spoken to in the past (including the one doing my laser) only will do an hour at a time. At that rate, it would take most people years to get their face completely done.
Since my usual time to completion is 100 to 150 hours of electrolysis from a virgin beard to bare face, wouldn’t you say that 150 hours AFTER having LASER sounds like a lot? That is, assuming the LASER did any significant hair removal.
My experience, for what it is worth. Type III skin, at the far end of the hair spectrum in what would be considered “normal”. Extremely dense hair, thick hair (65-80 lye units) badly distorted follicles, a mix of 80% black to 20% white.
I asked my electrologist for a ballpark quote before and after laser, she was reluctant but gave me the following figures. For her, 200 hours is about standard for a male beard (type II skin, middle aged, some HRT is the norm for her patients). She quoted me 250-300 hours of electro for my face before laser. After 7 laser treatments I went back and was then quoted about 125-150. After 2 more laser treatments, I assume it would be even less. On one side, that is almost a 50% reduction in time for electrolysis (at 100 hours x $65 an hour = $6500 versus 9 laser x $100 = $900). The other side is, I don’t know if the hair treated by laser will come back in full at some point down the road. (If any of these figures are even remotely close to accurate, I think I am still coming out ahead!)
Here is where laser may not help, at least in my case. The areas not affected by laser (all white hairs, and black and white hairs where white constitutes a significant percentage of the hair total) still need electro. The upper lip and lower lip are terribly dense and the follicles are badly distorted and just didn’t respond at all to the laser. The cheeks did not seem to respond either, so I guess 30-50 hours (?)of electro would be a given at the start.
James, in a few weeks, cross fingers you will see my face for yourself and set me straight on this 
Sounds like a Shoot out at the Electron Corral.
High Noon!
See you soon.
Do you have any studies to back up that claim? I would be very interested if the other electrologists confer with James’s observation. I have never heard this before and I can’t see why being trans would make the facial hair denser. If anything, common sense would indicate the opposite.
If the hair is being treated by laser with enough power to damage the follicle permanently, there is no reason for it to magically come back later, especially if you’re on hormones and not developing new hair. Not any more reason than if the hair is affected by electrolysis.