Palomar/Gillette diy laser new info

Hi, this is my 1st post but I just wanted to mention I found the fda summary for their laser & it sounds much more promising than any other diy laser.

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf6/K060839.pdf

This is a section from summary

  1. DEVICE DESCRIPTION

The ABC Hair Removal System is composed of a base unit, umbilical cord, handpiece, chiller system with chiller coolant, cleaning wipes, ABC lubricant, power supply and safety components. Details are provided in the Device
Description Section of this submission.

I spoke to someone at Palomar & they stated they did clinical studies on 600 people & results were very good. Also it’s out of their hands now it’s upto Gillette to market it. The fact that this comes with a chiller system & power supply already indicates it’ll be more powerful then tria or silk’n. What gives me this impression is the following section from summary which lists it’s predicate devices & another section of summary states it works as well as them.

  1. PREDICATE DEVICES

SpaTouch® PhotoEpilation System (K020856)
Radiancy (Israel) Ltd.
Spectra Hair Removal Laser (K052848)
SpectraGenics, Inc.
Palomar SLPTM 1000 (K013028)
Palomar Medical Technologies, Inc.

  1. SUBSTANTIAL EQUIVALENCE

The ABC Hair Removal System is substantially equivalent to its predicate devices when intended for use for hair removal. The data in this 510(k) notification demonstrate that the ABC System shares the same intended use, and similar design features and functional features, and therefore is substantially equivalent to its predicate devices. Details are provided in the Substantial Equivalence Section of this submission.

  • FDA doesn’t test for effectiveness. It only approves for safety of use

  • 600 people is a very small study and I would take any claims like that made by the manufacturer themselves with a grain of salt. You need unbiased studies.

  • I don’t see any specs for this product in this document. Where are the spot sizes, joules, pulse width, etc possible?

  • Btw the machines they listed are all IPLs and considered some of the worst for hair removal purposes.

Just a small clarification, the FDA clears light based systems for use, it does not approve. :slight_smile:

I’ve had both laser lightsheer diode & ipl solispro & I can tell you I much prefer ipl & had better results than laser. I don’t know why this site is so against ipl without proof or studies to back up claims that ipl is inferior to laser. Have you guys even tried ipl? I am skin type IV & had laser on my arms. I liked the fact she didn’t need to apply any messy gels & there was a chill tip but I still got a few burns around elbow & had red bumps & itchy skin for a couple of hours & yes she was certified & went to laser school & has been doing it for several years. My hairs started to shed about 10 days later but mostly had pepper spots as you call it. I than heard of this MD who also did cosmetic procedures & thought I’d try ipl through her & I got my entire body done as she charged an incredible rate for whole body. It took 4 hours & yes there was messy gel involved but she took so much precautions starting at low setting & doing some test spots & increased it according to what I could handle. Her nurse did most of it (MD came in several times to check on me) & the MD did my face, neck, underarms, breasts, full monty & buttocks, and knees herself. The room was chilled by a powerfull fan, they would ice areas immediately & the gel was very cold, & there was a chill tip. I didn’t have any adverse reactions although the bikini area & butt was super painful & when my hair started to fall out I didn’t have the pepper spots. Only on my arms where I had my 1st laser did some pepper spots still remain & I had more shedding as well with ipl. I go back in a week for my face (doing face at 5 weeks) & the rest of my body at 10 weeks. She stated that facial hair grow at a much faster hair cycle & I know mine does especially so I can come in at 5 weeks so I could achieve faster results on my face which was my main concern. I decided on ipl after doing some research & stumbling on this site.
http://www.md-laserderm.com/
Now take a look at his before & afters, some that go years after & the vast number of his OWN before & afters. This site convinced me to try ipl & I am so happy that I did. Now if you can find a laser practioner who has as many before & afters as this guy with better results than I’ll believe laser is better then ipl otherwise it’s just not true according to my own experience.

I actually reported back in April how I was amazed that a transgender client of mine had IPL on her legs, which she claims were very hairy to begin with, and it was amazing how great her legs looked. All she needed was a three to four hours of electrolysis to completely clear the front and back of her legs, top to bottom.

Before and after pictures on websites don’t hold much proof for me because people can do amazing things with their computers to enhance or take away images, done for their own gain.

I have never tried IPL because I don’t have any hair left after electrolysis was done on areas that concerned me many years ago. It just seems like common everyday posters that have come here over the years have registered complaints about IPL’s. In my own electrolysis practice, I have seen stimulated hair growth both from lasers and IPL’s on women’s faces, patchy results, no results or stimulated hair growth on certain body areas. So, I guess you can only say that hair removal with light based systems are all over the place as far as client outcome. Electrolysis or light-based systems require many variables to be in place, with electrolysis being more of a certainty if performed correctly than laser or IPL, if performed correctly.

Yes before & after can be altered but this MD has been using the same machine for over 10 years & according to his biography he’s
Clinical Assistant Professor of Dermatology, Cornell Medical College, 1977 to present, so I doubt he’s the type who’d alter photos or use a machine that’s ineffective.

You’re not comparing apples to apples. There are no gels with most hair removal lasers. The LightSheer used on you happened to be used with one. Also, you provide no information on settings used. Lasers can and are ineffective in in appropriate and low settings. IPLs are too. The fact that you got worse results with LightSheer usually means that whoever treated you with LightSheer didn’t use the best settings and whoever treated you with the IPL did the best they could with it.

When we say laser treatments are better than IPL treatments we mean that if treatments are both done at equivalent settings on the same exact area, skin type and type of hair, results with laser will be achieved faster and they will be better. There ARE studies on this btw. Check the sticky posts on the forum. You’ll also see that ALL professional who’ve been in the industry for over 10 years from the start and have tried all kinds of machines do not use IPLs for hair removal.

This site is not against IPLs. We’re helping sift through options to get the BEST results. You can get results with an IPL, but all things being equal including tech’s knowledge and settings, true laser is better. Btw, LightSheer is not the best laser out there. Alexandrites are better than diodes, which is why most renown professionals in the industry who can use anything choose to use them.

I should add that you will have no idea what your results are like until you are done, i.e. at least 6 months past your last treatment. So it’s way too early to judge what worked and what didn’t. Also, I hope you realise that you should only treat coarse hair with either machine. You can actually cause induced growth if you treat areas with fine hair, especially on the face. And pepperspots are often what remains after treating finer hair. Coarse hair sheds well.

I think it’s just U.S. is behind when it comes to IPL. I live in Vancouver Canada & many places here offer Ipl & many offer both laser & Ipl. I know in the U.K. & Australia they use Ipl & many places exclusively. Btw if you google Ipl vs. Laser you will find studies that say Ipl is just as affective as laser.

http://www.palomarmedical.com/FileUploads/Goldberg-hair%20JCLT%20paper.pdf

You have to wonder why so many in the U.S. who’ve been doing laser for more than 10 years are opposed to Ipl, it could be because they’ve invested so much money into their lasers, in some cases over $100, 000 and most of this “ipl is not as effective as laser” seems to be coming from the laser industry itself. And to say “ALL professional who’ve been in the industry for over 10 years from the start and have tried all kinds of machines do not use IPLs for hair removal” is just absolutely FALSE. Dr. Jay who I mentioned for one doesn’t. I also stated that my lightsheer treatment didn’t involve gel the only aspect I preferred over Ipl. Also the Dr. who performed Ipl on me stated she used to use laser before but switched to Ipl because she found it as effective & less time consuming & better value for consumers. Also there are studies out there that you don’t need the higher settings for laser to be effective. Here are some links.

http://www.palomarmedical.com/FileUploads/ASLMS2004-DiodeLaserVsFlash.pdf

http://www.palomarmedical.com/FileUploads/Ross_1064_PFB.pdf

It’s funny that you mention Alexandrites are better than diodes because from what I’ve read, and spoken to many clinics here most stay the lightsheer diode is the gold standard for lasers. Look I just think the laser industry is changing & soon there will be a host of other technologies that will probably make lasers less appealing. It’s kind of like when laser 1st entered the market place when electrolysis was the most familiar & popular & the backlash laser got from that industry. Well we know how that turned out.

Sorry Bean, but I think you are talking tosh.

The USA is not behind when it comes to IPL, they are the reverse. They dont like IPL’s because they dont product as good results as true lasers - FACT. I should like to know how many treatments you have had and when your last one was.

As for places in the UK usings IPL’s exclusively, you are right - they do. But is it because they work better or because reputable laser manufacturers will not sell them to beauty salons? Or because untrained people can buy an IPL very cheaply and the manufacturers are only too happy to off load them to anyone? You ought to take a look through the professional trade magazines here to see how many second hand IPL’s are up for sale and going for a song - hundreds. I have never seen a secondhand alex for sale.

All the studies you quote are sponsored by the manufacturers so they are hardly independant, plus they dont say anything anyway.

Plus any ‘Dr’ that states he can treat black skin with his Epilight and it is virtually painless is either not quite telling the truth or doesn’t know what he is doing or is a charlatan. Epilights should be in a museum - if they are so good, why are they not manufactured any more.

Finally, dont take my word or any other professional - just look throught the vast amount of communication on here and other forums and plenty of consumers will tell you that IPL’s are simply not as good as lasers for hair removal. It is not coming from the laser manufacturers themselves, it is coming from consumers.

  • “Studies” by IPL manufacturers are not unbiased. They “pay” doctors to sign off on them. I wouldn’t take that information as fact if I were you. They have a business to run and a product to sell.

  • The reason that all those clinics you know are buying IPLs is not because they’re best for hair removal. It’s because they’re a lot cheaper and they can do a multitude of other procedures. The question you should be asking is whether this is better for you or for them. Btw, there are tons of clinics in the US using IPLs too - more than true lasers. Everyone wants to make a quick buck (of course they don’t necessarily stick around too long).

  • The professionals who’ve been in the industry from the start have tried all types of machines including IPLs. Don’t you think they would love to use cheaper machines if they thought they provided the same or better results? The reason they choose not to is because they care about staying in business and providing the best results. Many clinics using IPLs go out of business pretty quickly.

Yes and studies by laser manufacturers are also biased. You shouldn’t make claims “all professionals who’ve been in the industry from the start don’t use ipl’s”. Did you call every single one of them up & ask? Also these same professionals from the start, many used to use Ruby lasers and now they don’t because they realize it’s not a good laser & there’s too much problems associated with them. It’s probably because there’s no regulations accross the board in U.S. that many clinics go out of business. From what I understand in some states there are no laws governing laser & ANYONE can open up a laser clinic even without any experience. I believe it’s those clinincs that are going out of business. I’m sorry but Dr. Jay & the MD I’m visiting know a lot more than laser & ipl than you or I & I will take their word & their results & experience. Dr. Jay has been in the industry for 30 years, he’s been a dermatologist for the military, he’s a clinical assistant professor at Cornell Medical College, and he’s an assistant dermotoligist at New York Presbytirian Hospital & he’s had access to all these machines & uses ipl because it works. How many of these “professionals” in the industry from the start have his credentials? He cares very much for providing the best results for his patients & he does so using ipl. Don’t make these negative general statements to those who believe in ipl & using ipl as if they don’t care about their patients or care to give them results. That’s PURE BS & by the way what makes you an expert in this field? Do you have a clinic? Have you treated anyone using both laser & ipl? Are you an MD or RN or have any credentials in the health care industry? You give advise based on what exactly?

BEAN, you seen to have a misguided sense of frustration. Just to get this out of the way, please by all means go with an IPL! And please report your results here. We love to hear success and failure stories as we learn from all. We’re not trying to convince you to switch. Go with whatever you feel is good for you.

Now, from what I understand, you have only had 1 treatment so far. I have had many areas completely finished with both laser and electrolysis with 95% + reduction on all areas I had treated (it’s been over 1.5-2 years on most). I’ve tried several practitioners and machines. I follow the industry trends, news, convention discussions, etc. If you’ve noticed, after I have gotten results, I’ve personally stuck around to help numerous people get results on these forums for the past several years, including those people who came here after having had ineffective treatments.

Once again, we’re here to help provide unbiased information on what the BEST way to get results is (This doesn’t mean IPLs don’t work. It simply means that all things being equal, true lasers work better and produce results faster). If you don’t feel our advice is accurate, by all means do whatever you want. We don’t get anything out of it either way. However, you really have no experience, and especially no personal experience, to propose that IPL is better as you haven’t had any results yet to speak of. No offense, but you are new to the whole thing and don’t seem to know many well-known facts in the industry that are consistently discussed here by professionals, i.e. information not gathered from the marketing hype you are reading (look up posts by SSLHR, an MD who owns a number of successful clinics in Texas and has been in the business since the beginning and has had the opportunity to try many machines that constantly hit the market; or Chris, the owner of Romeo & Juliet in NYC, or Choice, etc).

Also, I hope you realize that being a dermatologist means nothing in terms of hair removal because it’s not something that’s taught at any med schools. To become an expert in the field, everyone needs to go through the same training and then do treatments daily for years. If your doctor actually has 10 years of experience in laser hair removal specifically (Not 30 as that’s not possible. It hasn’t been around that long.), then it will be great for you and I wish you luck. I hope he’s been performing hair removal treatments specifically on numerous clients daily for the past 10 years. 10 years of just being a dermatologist doesn’t mean anything in hair removal as the best professionals in this industry (the ones who customers rave about on these forums) all learn from performing treatments daily. If he’s doing other dermatology work at the same time, he can’t be devoting that much time to hair removal.

Btw, those who are truly in on the industry all know what machines are best. If this doctor is as educated on the industry as you claim, he also knows that there are better machines out there because it’s constantly discussed at conventions, publications, etc. The Ruby laser was a good laser type btw. The reason it was phased out is because it was only safe on very very pale skin, i.e. there was a need for other machines to cater to everyone else and to make money. Either way, it sounds like you’re convinced of his expertise simply based on what he wrote on his website and what his clinic told you. And it seems hard to make you realize that that’s what is involved in attracting customers. If you get amazing results, I can see how you can claim this (Better yet, get IPL treatments on one side and true laser on another with practitioners with similar level of expertise). I hope you realize that right now, you’re just going on faith. I’m curious if you’ve even read any unbiased reviews of his clinic or spoke to any past customers of his.

Either way, I wish you luck with your treatments.

Dr. Jay has been in the industry for 30 years, I didn’t say he did lasers for 30 years. He pioneered Epilight & did clinical studies for fda & has been doing hair removal from the very start. Just because you got results with laser & electrolysis doesn’t mean someone using ipl won’t. You are very dismissive to any data that backs Ipl. Those clinical studies done by palomar weren’t done at some independant lab, one was at the prestigous Mt. Sinai shchool of medicine, one was at Wellman Laboratories of Photomedicine, Massachusetts General Hospital &
Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA. and I don’t think these places provide biased data like you suggested. Yes I’ve recently had laser done once, and ipl done on my entire body once, but that doesn’t mean I’m uninformed or havn’t looked into this for a while. I’ve been interested in laser since it 1st came out but because I have dark skin I waited till I felt confident the industry was able work on me without the horror stories I’ve heard. Now Dr. Jay has been working on all colour skins right from the beginning because of the ipl he uses & I wish that was around from the start or he lived here as I would have loved to have had the amazing results he clearly has been getting over the last decade with his patients. Have you even visited the link to site I put re: Dr. Jay because you seem to be confused on all the details. There’s something else that bugged me that you keep advising which is make sure they treat you with was it 16 joules to start for effective results? Did you also ignore the link I sent stating you don’t need such high j. Here’s another one.
http://www.palomarmedical.com/FileUploads/Altshuler-EffectsFluencePulseLight.pdf
I know from my skin type that both laser & ipl started at lower settings and I’m thankful because that could cause problems for someone with my skin tone. You absolutely CANNOT start at higher power levels with people with dark skin. You have to start low & work your way up otherwise serious burns can occur. Everyone’s skin is different so even some people with fair skin can’t take higher settings without burns. As this link I provided proves you don’t need high settings to acheive results. My MD also did that doing patch tests on different setting to see how high my skin could tolerate. I’m happy with the treatment with ipl so far and the amount of shedding I’ve seen without the pepper spots. I can’t wait for my long term results & I’m in the hands of someone I trust & have confidence in & I will definitely post again at a later time when I’m further into my treatment.

Prediction

One - [remove unnecessary personal comment]

Two - he will simply disappear from the forum within a few months because we will have proved him wrong and we will never hear from him again.

[remove unnecessary personal comment]…

I’m a female and I’m not the acting like I know it all. I don’t ignore studies and I’m not the going around telling people what joules their treatments should be in order to acheive results. What are you going to prove me wrong on? I thought this site was unbiased but I guess only if you agree only laser can work and not ipl. Some of the best plastic surgeons are offering Ipl here in Canada. In fact Dr. Mullholland of Toronto (highly regarded & sought after) was behind a clinical trial for silk’n & he’s indorsed it & sells it at his clinic.

http://www.mulhollandmd.com/About/DrMulholland.asp
http://www.spamedica.com/index1.html

He’s not a quack & knows what he’s talking about. He’s in a league of his own & he wouldn’t offer ipl or even sell silk’n if they didn’t provide results. He’s a premier plastic surgeon with a golden reputation not just in Canada & he wouldn’t stake his career on ipl if it didn’t work. I mean this guy even teaches courses to physicians. I’m sorry but I’ll take their expertise over annonymis bloggers ANYDAY.

Some facts for you and I’ll leave it at that. Please come and report your results, though as Pea mentioned, posters like you usually disappear.

  • Epilight is considered one of the worst machines on the market. If you run a search for consumer reports, it’s one of the few machines that has absolutely no positive feedback.

  • [remove unnecessary personal comment] First, there are several variables that determine “settings”. Second, they are completely different for every type of machine. Third, anyone experienced in the industry would never treat a person with a skin type darker than type IV with an IPL. Fourth, low settings do not produce permanent results and is usually the main reason for posts with lack of results on forums. I bet if you stick around that long, we’ll be able to add you to that group.

  • [remove unnecessary personal comment] I think I’ve repeated several times now that IPLs do work, just not as well as true lasers, all things being equal. No one said IPLs don’t work at all. Though now that you mention that you have dark skin and you’re treating your entire body, you’ll soon realise that your expectations are very out of balance with reality.

  • It is starting to sound like you’re trying to convince yourself instead of us that you made a great decision. Like I said above, it’s completely your choice to go with whoever you feel is best and has the best equipment. No need to reiterate why you think this is a great decision. I tend to disagree and I have a lot more experience, actual results, and years of knowledge to go on. Still, I don’t see why you care. Have your treatments and report back. No hypothetical claims necessary.

Bean:

Without mentioning " Names " some of these " FAMOUS " people who have done studies and endorsed products, etc. have had some TERRIBLE experiences with treatments on dark skin. We have seen some of their results in our facility. Most of those " terrible "
incidents on dark skin were the result of IPLS and Diode lasers.

Another sad IPL story in the making.

I’m not sure how this got turned into an IPL debate? 2 of the 3 predicate devices listed (K013028 and K013028) are diode lasers, and this system itself is a diode laser. :crazy:

I guess because BEAN seems to think that IPLs she’s going to use for her treatments like Solis Pro and Epilight are going to give her the best results.