I don’t see where the woman saved any money.
That’s not always the goal. Having a 2 minute treatment every 6-8 weeks is very appealing to many.
Desired results is the goal.
For the upper lip, we are talking about treating all hair colors that are present and there are many shades of color from light to dark on the upper lip and all hair diameters from very fine to very coarse. The hair is treated and removed immediately, the client isn’t told to go home and wait a couple weeks for shedding to occur (and hopefully it does occur). In about 3-4 20 minute electrolysis appointments, the upper lip looks as if there is no hair problem. Maintenance starts at this point and appointments are spread out every 2-3 weeks for 20 minutes. Permanence is assurred with skin that looks like nothing ever happened. Cost: under $500. That could mean $200? $300 $400 depending on how much hair one presented with in the first place.
So, dear consumer, you need to find a good practitoner for either modality you choose to use, laser or electrolysis, but don’t think electrolysis is out of the question time-wise. It is a very satisfying option for every hair color and is a very cost efficient method that will offer a guarentee that your hair will permanently be destroyed within the same time frame as laser. It is not a long journey. Let’s say that it is an assured journey that gets one results for permanent hair removal as oppossed to permanent hair reduction.
Dee
I should add that I chose to have electrolysis on my upper lip instead of laser because I had fine hairs and not that many of them. Laser can be good for this area, but only if you have a bunch of hair and it’s pretty coarse and dark and your skin is very light, and if you’re possibly treating other areas so that it’s not costing that much to zap this too. In other cases which are not severe at all, upper lip can be easily done with electrolysis with very few sessions. I think I may have had 8 total if not less spread over 1.5 yrs, maybe 2-10 mins each.
I think there are three issues here with this video and let’s talk about them one at a time, though they are somewhat interrelated.
- The pigment. Yesterday I was speaking to a woman who had issues with a treatment on her legs. I noticed that she had pigment changes on her lip that actually were more pronounced than what was shown on that video. Yet she had never had laser treatments to her lips. What she had was melasma. And what I saw on the video looked like melasma. Now melasma can be stimulated by a variety of of things to include laser treatment, so it is quite possible that the pigment was due to the laser, but I don’t think that in the absence of actual damage that pigment changes like that can occur unless the person also has underlying melasma.
The point is that melasma is more common than people realize and can be aggravated by lasers among other things. But it is a highly variable process that waxes and wanes. It can also be treated, though it can not be cured.
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The hair removal. I am not a big fan of the laser that that company uses to treat laser hair removal. It works to a point but is not terribly effective. There are people who have poor results who would have had much better results with a different laser. Faces on women are the most difficult areas to treat, especially the jawline, sideburn, and chin. But upper lips actually do quite well. The typical pattern with a full face is that at treatment #6 or so that the upperlip has practically no hair while there is still quite a bit of hair in other areas.
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Where did this story come from. Simple, it came from the American Society of Dermatologic Surgeons (ASDS). Who have an ongoing campaign throughout the US (something like $100K last year was devoted to this) to try to make laser hair removal and other lasers treatments the province of physicians only. In fact, I’ve heard people in the ASDS state that if they could, they would limit these lasers to dermatologists only. Plus the ASDS constantly is out looking for stories that they can promote to the media to make it look like laser hair removal is this very dangerous procedure that has to be regulated and to that end they are waging a disinformation campaign. The belief is that the ends justify the means.
The physician who was talking on that report knew full well that that was melasma, that it could and does happen to anyone regardless of whether the physician was present or not, and that it can be treated. In fact, if is was just due to the laser, it will go away completely. But that wasn’t the point. The point was that the ASDS PR campaign was able to get a news report to feature this story.
What I find interesting is that given what does occasionally happen, this was a very weak story. The problem has been for the ASDS is that they have had a problem getting individuals to want to be in those stories.
And by the way, the recent Tyra Banks’ laser hair removal expose was also done by the ASDS. The PR agency gets with the producers, pitches a story, the producers pick it up, the ASDS works with the producers to write the story, and the “talent” pretty much just reads the story on the air.
The part of all this that is quite ironic is that no where is there any physician based organization putting out any proposal for training or experience. It is all about protecting their turf but the argument is that a physician, of course, doesn’t need to be told what kind of training they need. On the other hand, in Texas there is a bill (HB 174) before the legislature that sets up certification for laser hair removal specialists. This is the first bill that lays out training requirements, experience requirements (so many proctored procedures) and a certification test before someone can be allowed to do laser hair removal. It has been agreed to by the Medical Board and the Dept of Health where it will be managed, and yet it is being bitterly fought by a group of dermatologists (to include the ASDS) who are trying to derail it because even though it requires significant training, more than anyone else requires, it takes laser hair removal out of the business control of physicians, who will lose that income.
Back to the pigment changes this lady suffered. Melasma, also referred to as cholasma, also referred to as “mask of pregnancy” is caused by estrogen. It is a change in facial pigmentation that happens during pregnancy and it can occur with women who are on birth control pills.
It appears that laser clearly stimulated the melanocytes on this woman’s upper lip. I say this with a belief that it happened because I have seen it recently on another woman who has had 4 treatments so far on her upper lip with laser, for which she says she is so happy with the results. What I can’t understand is, why can’t this woman see that her upper lip is much darker than the rest of her face? It is obvious that she has had pigment changes,but she is still going to finish up with the package she purchased.
So regardless of the turf wars for those that wield the wand and those that shouldn’t, hyperpig happens and I’m dubious that it can be blamed on melasma,which makles it sound like it has nothing to do with laser. By the way, electrolysis can also cause hyperpigmentation in susceptiple people. If it happens, it fades with time. Melasma is totally different for which there is no cure, as you said.
Thanks,
Dee
First, the cause of melasma isn’t really known and it seems to be somewhat associated with estrogen, but again how it is associated is not really understood. Plus, we can see the exact same pattern with women who have never had laser treatment. But I don’t think it really is clear that the laser stimulated the melanocytes. In fact, if you look closely at the video, it looks like the pigment issues extend out to the cheek where she wasn’t treated, though it is hard to say from that video.
The number of people who have hyperpigmentation occur after laser hair removal where there was no skin reaction is very, very low, but it does happen. The question is whether it happens in someone who does not have melasma. No one really knows. But this is different from someone who has a reaction and then gets increased pigment, which is the same as what happens with electrolysis. This is post inflammatory hyperpigmentation. Almost everyone gets it when there is a skin reaction and it eventually goes away.
The real question involving the person on the video was whether it was caused by the laser (maybe/maybe not) and whether it would have happened without the laser (maybe/maybe not). Now I do think that regardless of the mechanism and whether the laser caused it or not, once a person has it happen to them, then the laser center is responsible to deal with it. Kind of the attitude that even if you may not have caused it, since there is a potential that you caused it, that you need to assume responsibility for resolving it.
I have used both, laser and elctrolysis, I am skin type 4 and only on my 5th lower legs tx with laser did I get significant hyperpigment spots which have already faded in 6-8 wks.
With elctrolysis, I have had hyperpigmentation on chin whenever I got scabs, which after a year is almost faded. Its now easily coverable with light foundation. However, its occuring even more on my upperlip, this is my face and I have to go for weekly treatments so its affecting my life a lot more.
Having said that, I know there are many variables like practitioner skill which can cause less or more reaction and thus pigmentation. Also, I experienced small amounts of induced growth with laser which I would never want to risk with my face so I am sticking with electrolysis for this.
So which is better, I think its different depending on each person’s needs, but at a high level, the answers only lie in real data on success/failure of every single treated individual. I think it should be ‘mandatory’ for providers to gather and customers to record their results after txs but it may violate privacy laws.
Also, I would yet again request sslhr to publish some control studies. After more than 350,000 treatments you are in such a wonderful position to fight those colluding physicians with real data and help so many customers.
Unfortunately, that is easier said than done. Is there anyone else on this list (beside me) who has published articles in the medical literature? Just asking to see if my experience is unique.
I just know that publishing articles (I’ve published quite a few years ago in a completely different field-pharmacoeconomics and outcomes research) can be a real ordeal. You are dealing with peer review, sometimes with people who don’t understand or agree with your point, and can go back and forth for months.
After a while it becomes easier to publish because you become known but until that point of time, it is much more difficult. And by the way, this has nothing to do with the difficulty of running a controlled clinical study.
At the same time, I do not think that I can get anything published. I am on the wrong side of the question regarding delegation of laser hair removal. Editorial boards of the few publications that would publish this kind of report do not view my political position in a positive light. I tried to get an epidemiological analysis of the ASDS safety data published. Nothing happened and I stopped trying.
Given those obstacles and the fact that I have much more on my plate, I seriously doubt that I will publish any data in the near future. There is a part of me that is sad to say that, but such is the reality of life.
wow this thread certainly got off topic, seems like you guys should start a new thread called “Laser vs Electro… the never ending feud”
There’s no feud, Tom. These two modalities can compliment each other. Just some light wrestling here and there from time to time to keep expectations real. Discussions like these are very good for the consumer so he or she can peak in and sort out what is best or “normal” regarding their hair removal experience. Isn’t that why you check into hairtell?
yeah i do, i just noticed how it springs up in different threads from time to time ya know, as opposed to having its own thread that is completely devoted to this discussion (or if there is one i didnt see it so dont just down my throat for not knowing its there).
anyway… so its been about 4 weeks since my laser apt and i still have no hair! minus the few spots you can tell they missed.(annoying!)… how long should I wait do you guys think before i know officially this is a good decision for me? as in i should call and commit to spending money on this?
you should wait around 8-10 weeks and let us know what you see.
thank you lagirl
i am going in for a consult today at 4…basically to just show them the hair that has grown back and ask them if its working… is there anything else i should ask?
how long has it been since your treatment?
Can you submit any pictures?
Dee
i actually just shaved my back cause i was going to the lake… so no… sorry, but it will have been 10 weeks and my appointment is on the 16th… wew?