Hi, I’m a late-20s male, white with black thick hair on my back, chest, abdomen, and shoulders. Based on recommendations here, I visited Dr. Babapour in Beverly Hills today for a consultation. I was impressed with his willingness to spend time with me and answer questions and talk about the treatment strategy. This was completely the opposite of my experience with the Institute of Laser Medicine who tried to shove me out of the door to get to their next consult and got offended when I started asking technical or difficult questions. My main question for him was “How do you balance the desire to increase the fluence level to achieve better results with the increasing risk of side effects?” He said he always starts at his safe point (14 J/cm^2, GentleLase–alexandrite) and if the patient tolerates it well he’d increase 2 J/cm^2 each subsequent treatment. In my case he’s asking for $1500 per session to do all of the aforementioned areas (although he was willing to break the session up into two or more pieces if I needed the rest). This seemed like a fair price, although I have not done a lot of research in that regard. It was definitely better than the other place, and without the all-or-nothing pricing they tried to use (huge cost for first treatment to lock you in, then cheaper next treatment). And doubly so since he personally does the treatments so I know I’m getting an experienced operator. He was really up front with the fact that this is a reduction technique and that I likely won’t ever be completely smooth, and that results vary widely by person. I’m willing to try.
That said, he did 40 pulses over 10 test spots (two shoulders, two abs, two chest, two upper back, two lower back). I’m going to use some clippers to maintain an even cut before I do photographs, and Monday I’ll post some pictures of my natural state (although the test spots are already there).
I’m going to monitor the results of the test spots (I’ll post pictures over time) and make a determination to go for a full treatment based on how I perceive the length of hair reduction vs. waxing (former method used). I anticipate this will require 4-6 weeks.
Well, there we go. Thought we could use a good test case and I don’t mind sharing. More guys out there need some good case studies to read.
If anyone has some thoughts about how I should do my photographs or anything else to make the case study more internally valid, please reply. Also if you have experience with pricing I’d value opinions on my quote.
hey. glad you liked my doctor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> i would still recommend you to have 2-3 more consultations just to compare. You never know and it’s good to have the experience. the one thing with this particular doctor is that it’s hard to get him to go very high on the settings. he does it for me now since he knows i know what i’m talking about, but with others, it’s a bit harder. if you prove to him that you know what you’re talking about, it might be easier. 14 joules is ok for first treatment, but really, it’s best to be treated at as high of setting as possible the entire time, one that doesn’t burn you of course. that way, you ensure the most effective treatment every time, killing the most hair.
that price is fair for all those areas (he’s also great in terms of not charging for any packages and just per treatment, so you’re never stuck). i would really NOT recommend to do all the areas at once though. i know it might seem like you’re saving money, but this is the type of thing that doesn’t work on everyone, so i would start with one area that bothers you most and concentrate there. after you’ve had several treatments there, you can better assess if it’s worth it for you, and move on to other areas. this way it’s also not as significant of an investment. a couple things you need to be aware of before you start is that you’re at the age where you’re still developing more hair and that shoulders out of those areas are hardest to treat.
let us know how it goes and good luck. and yes, please post pictures and track your progress.
btw, that other place you went to has been discussed here before. it’s aweful. they use an IPL and charge huge amounts, and use very hard-sell tactics. i dont know how they stay in business. they also advertise a lot with their hard-sell tactics promising results that are not possible really with laser (100% smoothness), and especially with the machine they use. They are also not affiliated with UCLA in any way, it’s just a selling tactic since they’re located nearby.
I also see Dr. Babpour for laser hair removal. And I agree with everything lagirl said. I’ve had great results with him so far (I’m a female with type 3 skin and dark hair. I’ve had 5 laser treatments on my buttocks, 4 on legs, two on armpits, two on the “happy trail” line on the stomach, and one full bikini). It’d be great if you went with him and kept in touch with us on here because I’d like to hear a guy’s experience/results with him on those areas.
These photos were taken the day after the test spots. I used clippers to get the hair to an even length (and will continue to use that length in subsequent photos, if needed, for consistency). Test spots are circumscribed in blue. Already most of the hair in the test spots has fallen out or I have pulled it out.
It has been 5 months since my test spots and I kind of lost hope after I saw hair regrow in the same density after the second month. However, recently I shaved the areas shown above and I noticed that, as the hair is regrowing, the test spot areas are very clearly either (a) growing much slower or (b) not growing at all. Perhaps I happened to shave during the cycle of hair growth that was affected during my test spots? Perhaps there was a reasonably long-lasting result after all. I will take a photograph to show what I mean. Interestingly, and contrary to what I have read here, my shoulders have the most striking result on the test spot. I may just go in and get my back and shoulders done and see how things progress. Thought I’d share.
the only thing you can really judge with test spots is if the settings are high enough to produce shedding and not burn you. this is due to hair cycles. unless you do an actual hair count on the area, it will be hard to tell the difference after just one hit. but i’m glad to hear you’re noticed a slight difference which means you’re probably looking at it pretty closely.
Here’s my theory. According to what I have read there are three phases of hair growth, and therefore there are essentially three sets of hair assuming a uniform distribution of hair in each phase. They’re probably uniformly distributed in space, too. So, when I got my test spots and shed, I should have expected that the second and third wave of hair would grow in like normal since the laser doesn’t affect hair in the other two phases. However, when the first cycle of hair began to grow again, the test spots revealed their effect. The timing of 5 months is pretty much in line with this theory. End of November I got the test spots. Then 4 weeks later my second wave of hair grew in (I don’t know where I was in the first growth cycle, so I assume 4 weeks, the average). Then 8 weeks later my third wave was in bloom. Then 8 weeks later my fourth wave–the original first wave that was zapped–grew in, except in the test spot areas. 4+8+8 is about 5 months.
Impressed with just one treatment and one full hair growth cycle (all three phases, approx 5 months). I didn’t photo my other shoulder since it’s essentially the same result.
What do you think? I think that’s a pretty damn impressive result for 1 zap. And I would have totally missed it if I had not shaved serendipitously during the the same growth cycle as when I was zapped. I’m seriously considering just going for it and getting my back, neck, and shoulders done. Obviously it will take 3 cycles to get this sort of result full time, and probably 4-6 for best results.
i think you’re a great candidate and this laser is obviously working like it’s supposed to on you. you can probably get a pretty good reduction even after 3 treatments or so.
That’s impressive. Seems like you can expect at least a really good reduction with laser. If you decide to go for it, it would be a great service to keep this board updated with your progress.
It’s been about another month since my shaving uncovered a “hidden” effect of the laser zaps (see above theory on why it took 5 months to uncover this effect). The test spot areas are still clear as in the photos (it’s actually kind of comical to view from far away in the mirror).
I promise to keep this forum updated with more photos after each treatment.
Frankly, even if I don’t get amazing total smoothie results, I will be happy to have the rest of the areas with the same kind of clearance as the test spots because I can simply shave and enjoy a much-prolonged clearance with very little irritation. That alone would be a big improvement.
In terms of fluence levels, I wanted to fly this theory by everyone before I take it to the doctor. My opinion is that in order to maximize the effect of the laser, you should take as high as a fluence as possible (subject to safety) on the first zap. I believe this because the light is absorbed by the pigment which damages the follicle. So, if there is more pigment, you get a better energy transfer to the follicle. Also, given the anecdotes here about treatments causing thinning and lightening hairs over time, your first shot is the best shot since in the future the laser is working with less pigment, so to speak. LA Girl, what is the range for that machine? 14-20J/cm^2? I am unsure of the spot size and will be sure to document it.
There is no question that the higher the joules, all things equal, the better. And you are right that the first time one treats the hairs are generally as thick as they ever will be.
Of course, since most people will get a new crop of hairs that will start growing, the second and third treatments (and even the fourth) are often the same as the first.
The problem is that there are reactions that occur that are dose responsive (which means that with more power their is more reaction) but are completely unrelated to the amount of pigment and often are unpredictable. If one lasers enough people, you run into this on an occasional basis. This is one of the reasons we want to start a little bit lower in the settings than what we know we could probably get away with.
This is truly a place where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I would say as long as you stay at 18mm, you can be treated at 16 joules and be fine. you don’t want to risk burns. after a treatment or two, you can increase to 18 joules if your skin can handle it. 20 joules is max on 18mm.
The doc and I agreed on a price per session for all of the areas (like a T-shirt), but the soonest he could fit me in was early-mid July. So I’m going in then. He asked me to do another round of test spots just to make sure there will be no pigmentation issues. He noted that my skin has darkened somewhat since the winter; now he says I’m a type III because I appear to tan easily. Anyway, whatever. I couldn’t convince him to go to 16 J/cm^2. He’ll be using a spot size of 15mm, however. Not that the spot size matters since the fluence value already accounts for area…it’s joules per unit area!
Anyway, am very excited to get this done and have the shedding mostly done by the time I go on vacation this summer. Of course, I’ll post photos once the shedding takes place later in the month of July.
actually, you are not correct. Spot size matters a lot. the effectiveness of the joules used decreases proportionally as you lower the spot size. for example, on 18mm, the max is 20 joules and on 15mm, the max is 30 joules - and in that case 20 and 30 joules are about equal in power.
Fluence is defined as the number of particles going over a particular area. In the case of LHR, particles are just light energy, measured in Joules. So for a constant j Joules, increasing the spot size would decrease the fluence level; it would be the same amount of light spread over a larger area.
Proof you wrote it backwards:
Suppose that 18mm had 30J max. Then the fluence would be 30 J divided by 3.14*9mm^2 (energy divided by area of a circle with radius 9mm). Thus fluence is about 0.118. Now suppose that 15mm had 20J max. Then the fluence by the same calculation using a radius of 7.5mm would be about .113. Thus they are about the same, which is what we wanted to show.
Anyway, immaterial. He’s going to use 15mm @ 14J to start. Looking forward to my first full treatment. The second round of test spots are starting to shed (about one week post test).
no, i didn’t write it backwards. you’re not taking into acccount the way these particular lasers work and what is needed to achieve permanent removal. on this machine, 15mm 30 joules is approximately equal to treating at 18mm 20 joules. Please read the past posts by sslhr who describes why this is in detail elsewhere on this forum (run a search). hair removal lasers distribute energy in a pyramid effect, with larger spot sizes penetrating deeper too.
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