So Has Any Man At All Had Successful LHR On Chest/Back/Shoulders

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
41

not sure why you decided to write this all of a sudden considering all the other posts are 6 months old, but you should avoid making personal attacks in your posts because they’re not tolerated here (see Andrea’s comments).

now to address your points:

  • you obviously haven’t read many of my posts (there are 2 hair removal forums in total btw, and this is where I post and HELP people for free btw.). The FACT is that getting results is not dependent on areas treated, it depends on who is treating and how (this knowledge includes turning down clients who are not likely to get results in the first place). laser works well in the right circumstances. The more you stray from the perfect combination, the worse your results will be (this includes treating less than ideal types of hair, skin, body areas, etc). what you’re talking about at the end is called marketing and advertising. it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with how the product actually works, whatever it may be. just because laser is marketed wrong in our capitalist country where everyone’s trying to make a quick buck doesn’t mean that laser hair removal in general doesn’t work for those people who are in fact good candidates (yes, it’s the clinic’s/operator’s fault for telling you that you’re a good candidate when you’re not, but once again, that doesn’t mean that laser doesn’t work in the circumstances for which it was made to work).

  • what IS delusional is making statements with such numbers as “90% of the time” etc. it’s useless and it is not helping consumers since they are completely imaginary and not based on any facts.

  • 18-30 joule range alone doesn’t say anything about effectiveness of your treatments. without a spot size attached to each power setting, it can be a very low setting or a very high setting. there is no way to tell without that crucial information, so those numbers alone don’t mean anything.

  • if your MD was in fact very reputable (not sure what you’re basing this opinion on since the only thing you seem to know for sure about him at this point is that he didn’t get you the great results he promised), then he wouldn’t have treated your upper arms and any other areas that didn’t have coarse black hair and very light skin in the first place.

  • you obviously haven’t read any of my posts to anyone who’s asked about male facial hair removal, so please once again avoid making false statements. the very first thing i advise is for them to read others’ experiences on this area on this forum so that they know the risks they’re taking, especially since what is definitely clear is that this industry is still not at a point where most people operating lasers know what they’re doing.

42

The neat trick that I find that happens when people are discussing the effectiveness of LASER is the way its defenders manage to bend the language in order to answer a question that was not asked. Someone like me says “It doesn’t work”, by which we mean, 99% of people looking for hair removal, want 100% hair removal that lasts for the rest of their lives, and LASER doesn’t give that. Then the LASER defenders start talking about reduction, long term results, and regrowth rates, and probability that more hair will or won’t grow in the treatment area, and how it is worth the risks in exchange for the “time it saves”(because it sure doesn’t save any money)

Once that return volly has been lobbed, the conversation is all about can LASER do ANYTHING, and not the original premise, “Can LASER give what 99% of the public wants when searching for Permanent Hair Removal?” What most people sitting down in a Hair Removal Practitioner’s treatment chair have in their mind is the 100% disappearance of all offending hairs (read, visible to the unassissted eye at conversational distance) with no long term visible tissue injury, and no regrowth in the area.

This expectation is why electrologists must teach hair growth cycles as if they are a latin teacher drilling for a catholic school. Unless a person knows that it takes at least 9 months to have all hairs come out above the skin’s surface once, the client will be mad when the next phase of hair growth comes out in 6 to 12 weeks.

So, if you want 100% removal, and forever is your idea of permanent, and you don’t have money to gamble with, try Electrolysis. If Some Reduction, some of the time, with possible side effects, and possible increase of hair growth in exchange for “saving some time” while spending as much or more money as a good electrologist would charge to do the whole job from start to finish AND THEN going to the electrologist to “Finish The Job” (read spend more money and time) sounds good to you, then give LASER a try. Just make sure that you still do a search for the best electrolysis in your area, and have a reserve of cash set aside so you can “finish with electrolysis”. Some people have said that what they did with their “Finish With Electrolysis” was to actually do the whole job that LASER did not do, or that LASER added work to have done, but those were the unlucky few. LASER at least causes some positive change usually, just NEVER 100% Removal of visible offending hairs, with a Permanent Hair Removal in the area with no visible skin side effects.

The funny thing is I was at a festival and a friend I bumped into introduced me to a gal who asked me some questions about hair removal. She was very interested in my ideas on LASER and said that she had some work she wanted to do on her arms and legs, and other body areas. She then said that she did not want to work with me as she knew LASER worked, as she had had it done on her arms and legs and body already, and was looking to “Finish With Electrolysis”. I kind of smiled and wished her well, and thought to myself how impossible a situation that was… see, when she said she wanted hair removal on her arms and legs, I was looking at the strange pigment and texture of her skin and wondering what the heck had caused that! You don’t just say to a WOMAN you just met, “Hey, what the heck messed up your skin lady?” All the hairs she wanted to have removed were brown, long and thin. So the LASER did what it promised, it made her hairs thinner and LESS noticeable, and maybe some of the hairs are even gone, but she is now looking to spend MORE MONEY trying to get what was always her goal; 100% permanent hair removal of offending hairs in the treatment area.

Now in all fairness, finding a electrologist who is highly skilled, and has any speed, and has equipment that is not 30 years old is a challenge, but for those who do find that, the world is a different place. For those who can’t find that, electrolysis is a slow painful process that can only say that it yields results, if you have the time and money to get what you are paying for. This is after all, what makes LASER such a lucritive thing, it allows one to put the quick click, click of the LASER up against the slow steady progress of electrolysis, and charge people AS IF THEY HAD DONE MANY HOURS OF ELECTROLYSIS for what can be 15 to 60 minutes in the LASER chair. Were it not for this comparisson, the prices charged by LASER would not be tolerated by the public.

43

you have made some good points James. I think what is obvious is that proper expectations need to be set. Laser operators should be honest in telling customers what kind of reduction they should expect depending on each customer’s area treated, type of skin and hair, etc. Unfortunately, this is still not the case in the industry where everyone’s trying to make a quick buck and are basically overhyping the effectiveness of laser. If people who shouldn’t have been treated in the first place weren’t treated and those who are good candidates were all treated with proper machines at proper settings, these stories wouldn’t exist. Not everyone’s expectations are to remove 100% of the hair on an area. And a lot of times, desires change after they start removal anyway. That was definitely my experience. Once you get rid of some hair, you want more and more done.

I do have to disagree on your assessment of this girl’s skin. how do you know what the texture of her skin was before she did laser? i’m sure she wouldn’t have been very happy with her treatments if it ruined her skin. that tells me that laser had nothing to do with it and if it was in fact bad, she probably had bad skin to begin with. laser doesn’t affect the texture of the skin unless the skin is actually burned (and it has to be a pretty bad burn to be long-lasting), which isn’t a proper treatment just like overtreatment with electrolysis that can cause scarring. but on average, laser actually improves the texture of the skin since it basically eliminates ingrowns and other negative side effects on skin from temporary hair removal methods. To add to that, I do have a bunch of ingrowns after electrolysis that need to be dug out at some of my treatments. I do not have any on any area where laser was done though. I think it’s because the hairs that are not killed by electrolysis upon first zap are coming in a lot finer and are having a hard time getting through the skin on some areas.

44

You know, James, your hatred of Laser is well known on this board. And while you do impart a lot of very useful, very important knowledge, you also generalize as much as some of the people that don’t know what they’re talking about.

I had excellent results with Laser, and yes, I’m “finishing up” with electrolysis for the small areas that it missed. But what I really want to say is that if you’re as fast as you claim, then your clients are very lucky. I’ve been to three different top electrologists in L.A., and none of them come close to matching the speed that you claim. If I had gone to them for clearance on my legs and back, which the Laser cleared 99.99%, it would have taken about 10 years at the rate that it’s taking to clear the small areas. Again, if you’re that fast, you’re the exception. I never would have gotten to the point I’m at now without Laser. It can work. I’m proof.

45

If you are male and had 99.9% removal of the hair on your back then you are probably one in those 1% that gets results like that. Still I find it somehow unrealistic but if you say so then be it. MD that was treating me said that back hardly gives more than 50% reduction and 60% is called a succes. Even with 60% reduction your back is still hairy. So yeah why not pay 600 or $700 for one treatments which will cost you somewhere close to $4500 to give you this “reduction” just to see if you get 50 or 60% reduction. You r short 4500$ your back is still considered hairy and you r as misreable as you were when you started these promising treatments…I quess you are the lucky one.

46

once again, numbers like 1% etc are completely imaginary in your post and made up by you. if you want to know real numbers, ask people like sslhr on this board who actually own several clinics and have been treating patients for 10 years. that’s where you can get a more accurate number. this number will also represent an accurate estimate of laser effectiveness when performed correctly with proper machine and settings only on those who are truly good candidates. just because laser (and often IPL) is being performed by many uneducated techs doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have the potential to work. it just means that there are too many people who are using bad machines and performing treatments not knowing what they’re doing.

also, the fact that your MD gets these kinds of results should tell you that he might not be the most knowledgeable person performing the best treatments. considering he’s an MD, I would assume he’s not doing hair removal 24/7, so his experience in the subject is likely limited as he’s busy with other procedures and medical responsiblities. it makes me wonder how many clinics you checked out before you picked this one. $700 for one back treatment is a pretty high price as well. There are clinics in LA that charge that, but if you look around, you can find $200-350 treatments with good lasers at good clinics too.

of course, if you specified actual details of all your treatments with every setting, type of hair, density on each area, etc, we can help you figure out why you are not getting results. however, you seem more focused on assuming that laser doesn’t work in general maybe because it’s easier to justify spending that much money on only slightly effective treatments. i don’t know. the reason I and people like hairlessinla actually go results was because we did our research. I asked for specific settings at every one of my treatments and I checked out several clinics before choosing mine. That played the biggest part in me getting results and that is what I’m helping others on these forums do (and have helped many actually GET results successfully btw, including many friends).

47

This little argument is pointless to me LAgirl because whatever I say about Laser that is negative you will turn around and make it positive. And let me just briefly…for two seconds …comment on these last sentences you wrote why you got good results…IT NEEDS NO COMMENT…It needs no comment.

I just don’t buy it that if I would go to a diffrent place I would get better results. I was started at 18 joules than next treatment was either 18 or 20 than third was 25 o something like that and the rest were 30 joules with 15mm spotsize. tell me what other clinic would do different that would give me better results? Raise joules up to 35 or 40 and make me a fried chicken?
what else is there to try? Laser is pretty basic. Electrolysis is the thing where operators skils and knowledge play a big part in this whole process but not the laser. Of course experience and knowledge counts with laser hair removal but not to the extent you always try to point out to people.

48

it’s not an argument and I have no desire to get into one with you. you’re making black and white statements and throwing out numbers that are either simply not true or have no meaning. it’s confusing and unfair to people looking for information who don’t know any better.

the main questions about your treatments are:

  • why they never used the higher powered 18mm spot size. starting out at 18 or 20 with 15mm was pretty low, considering the max on 15mm is 30J and the hair you were treated is deep. so the first few treatments were sort of wasted time and money.

  • it sounds like you’re not understanding the significance of spot sizes. it doesn’t matter how high you raise the joules is the spot size is too low to penetrate deep enough to reach deeply-rooted hair. just upping the joules is not an answer. there are several variables to this science. there is a reason that 20 joules is max on 18mm, but on 15mm, it’s 30 joules. the power is similar, but penetration is not. consequently, in order to treat at 40 joules, you would need to lower the spot size to a small 12mm on this machine.

  • why they treated your upper arms in the first place, and also any other areas where the hair was not dark dense and coarse

  • why you didn’t research other clinics before committing to this one, which is also pretty expensive

  • did you experience full shedding on all areas after each and every treatment, and if you didn’t, why you kept going for treatments.

49

sorry if I wasn’t clear in my recent post but 15mm was only used when 30 joules where used but for 18 and 20 I had 18 mm spot size. He also said that bigger spot size is for deeper hair. That MD had over 5 years experience with his gentlease plus and was moderator on other forum. His prices were quite high but like they say you get what you pay for. Plus you pay because you are treated by MD and not by trained operators.I knew that whatever results I’ll get with him will be the best i would get if I went anywhere else. The hair on my legs and butt shed but not all of it. After every treatment I was left with what seemed to be peppershots that wouldn’t shed some did most didn’t and than the regrowth started so I was never really trylu hairfree during course of these treatments.about 30% hair didn’t shed and no he didn’t miss any spots. He was actually very carefull with that and took his time to cover each and every spot. Now my upper arms would shed completely but the hair came back longer and darker.
What a diffrence when after each treatment I see how many hairs come back on my upper arms and than what I see when I do electrolysis. I remember this MD telling me that he thinks electrolysis is worse than laser cuz it’s slow and he said that for hair with pigment it works the same. I am living proof that it doesn’t work the same even on course hair! I also remember during the course of treatment after my first treatment I will get at least 80% reduction here 75 and up there etc After 5-6 treatments he would say you know it may take a little longer cuz your young and younger people need more treatments after 10 12 he just said you know laser is what it is. I am not blaiming this doctor now for whatever results I got or didn’t get I blaim myslef for being ignorant at that time when i wouldn’t even dare to read what electrolysis is and what it does because I had a state of the art laser in front of my eyes that will give me permanent results:) Thank you good night:)

50

In various medical literature pertaining to laser hair removal, it is repeatedly said that outcomes for laser hair removal vary. No one can assure 100% effectiveness or 0% regrowth. These are statements that should NOT be believed. Certain clients have a minimal response and others have an exceptional response. Variables exist in the treatment applied and that affects outcome.

I think people need to be told the truth up front, meaning, " maybe this or maybe that" statements, so they can keep their expectations in check. The pretty, shiney pictures on brochures and websites mislead. The before and after pictures are misleading as well because what works well for one is not the conclusion for another for whatever reasons.

If I did laser hair removal, I could never say or IMPLY things like I say to my electrolysis clients. I say this sentence to my clients - “I Always Win.” When I say this, then they know that they will win,too. You can say a statement like this about electrolysis because it does work on any hair color, any skin color, any thickness of hair, whether it be a shallow planted hair or deeply planted hair.

With that said, I am delighted, absolutely delighted, when a client has had laser hair removal and received a huge reduction (they are exceptionally pleased, by the way) and come to me to finish up the areas that the laser light can’t see anymore.

So, the two modalities can be happy buddies working together. Trouble is, most laser personal ignore me when I give them my card and say I’m here for those people that need help beyond what the laser can “see” for the remaining hairs. They act insulted… until they do enough cases and have disgruntled consumers jumping down their back demanding they do more to get the hair off because this is not what they paid for.

Dee

51

Ditto

And just for the record, I don’t “HATE” LASER as so many believe, I only hate the over hype and slander that “Laserologists” perpetrate against my industry.

If a person understood that they are going to try to get a certain result, and after a point, there is no reason to continue to lase an area any further, most would not feel so cheated or abused. Part of my anger is from being the person who gets to be on the receiving end of those who vent over their experiences.

On the subject of electrolysis speed, comparing a good MicroFlash operator, utilizing auto-insertion sensors, and surgical optics and lighting with someone doing Blend with a foot pedal circle lamp magnifier is like comparing speed between a bicycle and a motorcycle.

For any misunderstandings beyond this, I apologize.

52

hairlessinLA used microflash. most of the electrologists we’ve both tried here in LA have the Apilus machine and use flash. they’re not slow, but the speed you’re talking about is definitely an exception. unfortunately, not everyone is that fast :slight_smile:

53

If I may chime in here.

You people, all of you, on both sides, need to maintain some semblance of analytical thought. Laser versus electrolysis (yawn) is like comparing a huge mob in the street fighting a small military force. The two really can’t be compared unless it is done taking into account many more variables than what I see going on here. The military force has had time to prepare and train for 125 years, and with only three narrow forms of skill application (galvanic, blend, and therm), the mob has never do wells, truly committed people, rabble rousers, and hucksters. And, they have several different applicable methods ranging from RF emitters, to flashlamps, to diodes, to ruby lasers. Some of these lasers you people speak of ‘not working’ aren’t even lasers. You have to be more scientific than that. One of my pet peeves is psuedo-scientists, half-trained scientists, and half baked theory scientist trying to discuss scientific matter. PHHUULLEEEZE!

If you want to discuss laser versus electrolysis, talk about alexandrites, ruby lasers. They were the first, they were what the FDA clause alludes to, they are the industry standard. Everything else is a muckity-muck trying to get a piece of the action. Don’t talk about the plethora of posts on failed flashlamps/ IPL’s, Auroras, Comets. It sure is tempting, but don’t try to compare Yugos grouped with Mercedes versus the Prius, don’t try to compare Bic disposables grouped with Venus Vibrances to The Braun 360 complete. Don’t try comparing students at Phoenix Community College grouped with Mathematics majors at the University of Chicago versus the academic rigor of students at Shanghai University. Something works, something doesn’t, there is only one universal truth in this, you guys should find it, and not by making generalizations.

Mantaray

54

I apologize also for misstating your opinion, but I totally agree with what you have written here. I think this is what lagirl always stresses… you have to go into these procedures with your eyes open. Know what you are buying before you buy. And you are also right, that most of these Laser clinics promise results they can’t give.

I still think, given my experience, that I did this the right way. I think it would have cost me more and taken more time to go with electrolysis alone.

55

i think we all are in agreement here in that lasers are overhyped (this includes the fact that Mantaray mentioned, that many of these machines are not even true lasers and were never made to produce great hair removal results, but mainly to make money)and that’s what causes the most problems for most people not getting results, the majority of whom come to a clinic expecting to be told the truth and unfortunately leave with unreal expectations and sometimes outright lies as in the case of some chain clinics we’ve read about here.

56

And perhaps you did for what is available in your area. I am genuinely happy for you. I believe that my personal treatment program might compare very competitively with what you did, but the important thing is that you got what you wanted and you don’t believe that you paid too much for what you got, and you did not get any lasting negative side effects. My last PCOS patient who completed treatment did less than 50 hours in less than 50 visits spread out over 3 years (she did not come on the schedule I would have liked) and she now has nearly 3 years hair free.

Congratulations :slight_smile:

57

Can someone send me instructions as to how to post pictures on this site?

I will put up pictures of my back. Eight years ago I started treating only my left side. I ended up treating about once every year and half (I was busy). I’ve done a total of 7 treatments on my left side (at max settings of 16 joules). I have done one treatment on my right a year ago when I decided it was time to even out my back.

I’ll post the most recent pictures. In one picture you can see the before and after.

58

PM me your contact info and I will talk you through it.

59

I’m not going to bash laser, but more or less explain my experiences with it. From my experience (20-25 laser treatments) and from what I’ve read from experiences from others it is probably a horrible idea to try to get your shoulders, upper arms, or back treated with laser. I’ve read countless posts of people who have had laser induced hair growth in this area. Most of the time, I read of better results on males on the chest and stomach area. I share that sentiment. I have seen 40% reduction on my chest, and probably 70% reduction on my stomach. I am thankful for the reduction on my chest and stomach from laser, however, it is going to cost me about 10K at least to get rid of it from the places where I have laser induced growth.

As James said though, Laser is not going to get rid of it all. On large scale areas, it may be more expensive than laser, but if you stick to it, I think you can probably get rid of it sooner than laser anyway. If you are going every 12 weeks in laser, if you need 8-10 treatments, it’s going to take you upwards to 3 years to get a good clearance, and even then it’s not all going to be gone. With electrolysis, if you stick to schedule, u should be able to look pretty good at 1-2 years. People just want the easy way out and what is least time consuming. Naturally people don’t want to have 2-3 electrolysis appointments a week, and see slow results. Electrolysis, slowly but surely. It’s not cheap, look at my profile. But one thing I can say is I am seeing progress. I could NEVER say that about laser on those areas.

60

sslhr, you can upload pics to www.photobucket.com and post the html tag here, so that the pics appear right in your post. otherwise, you can go to your profile and you will see an option.