7 years of electrology and still as hairy as ever

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
41

Having spent hours and hours on both ends of the probe, I would have to say that Microflash is getting a bad rap from many practitioners who still insist that the only valid methods of permanent hair removal are galvanic and blend.

I am currently getting my upper lip and brows done and the method being used is strictly flash. I know from my own experience that Microflash is over-all at least as effective as the other two modalities, and if applied by a skilled operator, has a lot lower discomfort level than either galvanic or blend. I wish that my electrologist could provide the same level of comfort to me that I can give to my own clients!

One thing to consider here is that the newer machines ae much better designed and, operating 13.56MHz are much better at supplying heat than the epilators that were in use when Hinkle and Fontz authored “Galvanic, Thermolysis and the Blend”. The 27.12MHz machines are still more efficent at producing heat.

You mentioned that the frequencies used for thermolysis are not very efficent at producing heat in the follicle. However, when one considers that the average thermolysis machines, operating at the lower frequencies than those in current use, are still capable of producing thermolysis blowout, blanching and thermodessication, the question becomes one of how much heat actually needs to be produced to effectively destroy the regenerative tissues within the follicle?

Being a current consumer of electrolysis as well as a licensed practitioner, I prefer thermolysis to the other modalities as my electrologist can keep the areas that I am getting worked clear and I am seeing a constant decline in the number of hairs that are being treated to obtain each clearing. For this I am grateful.

I am getting to the point where my upper lip gets cleared and my electrologist can clear my brows and then move onto my chin in one hour now. This would not be possible in the 5 months that I have been having treatments with either blend or galvanic. They might be marginally better modalities as far as percentage of kill, but the speed of flash and microflash more than make up for the decrease in effectiveness, if any, when it gets evaluated on the basis of hairs killed per dollar.

Just my humble opinion,
Joanie

42

I agree. I’ve had some blend treatments on the deep curled hairs on the nipple area, but had had thermolysis and microflash done on eyebrows, upper lip, chestbone, stomach, some bikini, underarms, and finishing nipple area. I am happy with results on all which I have gotten in a reasonable amount of time of about 12 months. I haven’t seen much difference in the kill rate compared to blend, but a definite difference in time it takes to clear an area. I believe that the skill of the electrologist is most important here and correct usage of modality for those more diffucult deep-rooted curled hairs. Otherwise, microflash is fast and least painful of all, but otherwise as effective in my opinion and experience.

43

I agree Joanie, Flash is getting a bad rap. As one who practices flash and embraces the high, accurate power of a computerized machine, this is all kind of a strange discussion to me. Thermolysis can be applied so many ways; one blip, two descending-depth blips, ascending blips, five blips going deeper, strong-quick blip followed by longer-lower powered blip, and by such a variety of experienced electrologists. It would be inaccurate to just use the blanket term to aptly describe it. It’s become a whole sub-artform over time.

No offense to the original poster, but Flash is not a lame attempt to compete with laser. Good flash basically runs circles around laser. And that’s considering only with dark haired individuals. Red haired, light brown, dark skinned, and blond haired individuals could get lasered for years and never see reduction, and could get rapid clearing with Flash. All these people are a huge segment of the population. A statement can’t be made ignoring them.

I wouldn’t be treated any other way, and believe me you, Joanie, I know where you’re coming from with the ‘hours and hours’, just this week alone I’m at 9 hours of flash treatments. Whew! I’m a walking pin cushion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mantaray

44

believe me you, Joanie, I know where you’re coming from with the ‘hours and hours’, just this week alone I’m at 9 hours of flash treatments. Whew! I’m a walking pin cushion <img src=“/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif” alt=“” />

Mantaray

This is exactly why laser CAN compete very well even with microflash electrolysis on light skin and dark coarse hair. I know. I’ve done both. And 10 minutes only 6 times sure beats hours I would have spent on my bikini and underarms with microflash. That, however, does NOT take away from effectiveness of electrolysis on all those areas I’ve had done successfully with electrolysis as I mentioned above.

45

[/quote]Quote from lagirl:
“This is exactly why laser CAN compete very well even with microflash electrolysis on light skin and dark coarse hair. I know. I’ve done both. And 10 minutes only 6 times sure beats hours I would have spent on my bikini and underarms with microflash.” [/quote]

How long have you been hair free in those areas that were lasered? Has the area been untreated for more than 2 years?

How long have you been hair free in those areas that you had electrolysis and have those areas been untreated for more than 2 years?

It is the long term results that are particularly interesting to those of us who are committed to ending the distress that comes from unwanted hair.

Thank you in advance.

46

I stopped laser treatments a bit less than one year ago and I will definitely be here reporting in another year <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I stopped electrolysis treatments about a month ago on the fine sparse hairs, but honestly, I wouldn’t really consider those “treatments” as we probably removed about 5-10 tiny fine hairs on my underarms once a month. I used to have a LOT of dark coarse hair there. There is a picture of my underarm before an electrolysis treatment if you look under my name to the left. When I say I got 95% removed with laser on THOSE 2 areas, I mean that. What I’ve been getting removed with electrolysis afterwards is that other maybe 5% (probably much less), which is insignificant in my opinion. I would have been fine not getting them removed and I would only need to just dry shave once a month with one swing if that. I’m just getting to that point where I want every single hair gone now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, I love electrolysis for many other areas. But I just wouldn’t have gotten these results this fast without any post-treatment side effects with electrolysis on these particular areas. I’m a proponent of both depending on which one makes more sense in a particular situation. And I don’t expect any more hair to magically appear 2 years later. NoHair on this forum who has done both as well hasn’t had anything grow back after laser treatments after 6 years.

47

No, underarms are a walk in the park with electrolysis, I could get those in a much shorter time frame than with laser radiation. Electrolysis allows more variety in terms of the hair’s growth cycle. With laser radiation, the hair has to be in the absolute, correct anagen growth point. Even then, it’s not a given that it will be killed. That’s why laser radiation requires ten visits spaced out as opposed to the faster timeframe electrolysis would allow. Further, Joanie is clearing finer hairs on the lip area. This work is far more suited for electrolysis clearing, using laser radiation would be foolish as well as quite possibly totally ineffective.

Besides, with myself, I’m clearing magnitudes larger areas. Comparing underarms to what I’m doing/ have already cleared/ is unrealistic.

Mantaray

48

Hello.

I just wanted to pop in on this one and say that I have seen long-term permanent results (over 5 years) with clients who have had their underarms treated with L.A.S.E.R. I am totally impressed with what laser hair removal can do for this body area. The few whispy hairs that they come to me for, requesting electrolysis, are the whimpiest little white feathers you can imagine. Yes,I can handle the underarms with electrolysis, but when my clients say they want to start their underarms, I give them the LASER information and offer some names of LASER practitioners that are experienced. It is up to them if they will pursue LASER or stay with me. Of course, I’m happy to earn their money, but I feel happier internally if I give them honest information.

Either modality works well, but 10 minutes under the laser wand is faster if you have a lot of hair. It may not be cheaper, though, if one needs 10 treatments.

Thanks,

Dee

49

Why jump and skip and take the information in my post out of context? I had 95% removal after 5! laser treatments spaced 8-10 weeks apart. Each treatment for both underarms took 5-7 minutes TOTAL. And it only cost me $500 TOTAL for this area in laser treatments. No, electrolysis cannot compete with that on this particular area if the hair is coarse and skin is light. Same with bikini. I’ve spent $1500 since on electrolysis on probably as many hairs at this point.

And noone was stating that fine hairs on upper lip should be treated with laser. In fact, I said I had the fine upper lip hairs done with electrolysis because that’s a better more effective method for that area. I know it’s hard, but try to read everything and be objective. You can choose whatever you want for your treatments. If it’s worth it for you to spend the time and money on electrolysis for those areas that can be cleared with laser faster and easier because you don’t believe in laser, that’s completely fine and you can choose whatever you want for yourself, as can others given the proper information. But as Dee agreed, it doesn’t take away from the facts. Some things make more sense financially and time-wise. That’s what we’re discussing here.

Also, implying that hair needs to be in a certain growth phase for laser to be effective, but not electrolysis, is also unfair to those who are reading this and don’t know any better as as a whole, the statement is not true.

50

Hi Dee,

If you can show me one shred of evidence that refutes the regrowth rates of thermolysis on deep, terminal hairs, I will concede this disagreement. One shred, that’s all I’m asking.

Keep in mind that manufacturers of the latest, computerized epilators have to sell their machines. To tell electrologists that they work no better for a first pass clearance than a machine made 60 years ago would hardly help sales.

Computerized epilators, when used exclusively in thermolysis mode, are great for patient comfort but they are ineffective on deep, terminal hairs. One shred of evidence is all I ask.

If you can’t provide the evidence, you must prove to me how the laws of physics fail to function at your place of business. Unless your machine was made at Hogwart’s and blessed personally by Harry Potter, you have to follow the same rules as the rest of the world.

I use the Silhouet-Tone VMC for most of my work.

51

Hi Lagirl,

I really wish I had your luck! Unfortunately, I have a lot of light blonde and lately some gray hair as well…sigh…

For me Laser would be nothing but a waste of money I’m afraid. Glad to hear that it worked so well for you and in as few of treatments as it did.

I have had a couple of girlfriends that have had good results as well, but a few that had more problems post treatment as well. The curious thing here is that all were treated by the same operator. It just goes to show that we all react differently to things.

Joanie

52

Hi Galvaniczap,

I would ask if you could show one shred of evidence that shows that some of the newer treatment methods using things like multiplex are not as effective as galvanic on deeper thick hairs? As with anything else, operator skill is a big factor.

One thing that I will state here is that properly used, thermolysis will work effectively on about 95% of the hairs that one is likely to encounter in practice. The other 5% I will generally use blend on.

As a practicing electrologist, I am obligated by professional integrity to try and give my clients the best possible treatments in terms of hairs per dollar. I like the fact that microflash will get my clients clear and keep them that way and still get them out the door in the shortest possible time.

There are times I do use blend however, if I use straight galvanic, I will not be in business very long as the clients will seek other practitioners who can clear them faster. As long as the hairs come out with the inner root sheath and full bulb with no resistance, that hair is history, regardless of the modality used to remove it.

JMHO,
Joanie

53

Hi Lagirl,

I really wish I had your luck! Unfortunately, I have a lot of light blonde and lately some gray hair as well…sigh…

For me Laser would be nothing but a waste of money I’m afraid. Glad to hear that it worked so well for you and in as few of treatments as it did.

I have had a couple of girlfriends that have had good results as well, but a few that had more problems post treatment as well. The curious thing here is that all were treated by the same operator. It just goes to show that we all react differently to things.

Joanie

Yes, that’s the first time in my life I felt lucky to be pale with dark coarse hair <img src=“/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif” alt=“” />

I’m glad some of your friends has similarly good results. I think the differences in experiences stem more from the type of skin and hair and areas treated (as well as the reasons for why the hair is there in the first place) in terms of what result one gets. I assume these things varied among your friends, which probably resulted in the differences in results.

54

There seems to be two discussions going on here at one time.
So switching gears, my comments are for galvaniczap.

I must say that is a creative, cutesy post with the Hogwart’s and Harry reference, but there is nothing magic about all this as I will explain.

People always fall back on statements like “show me the evidence” as if some study proves consensus and total truth. Yes, I too, like Joanie, would like to see the fully published study you talk about, gal-z. If you are going to stand behind any published study showing an 80-90% regrowth rate with microflash thermolysis on deep terminal hairs, may I also request that you post the study specifics here so we can see the methodology used as well as the year the study was performed.

Microflash thermolysis is effective on deep, terminal hair and I’m surprised you haven’t discovered that if you have a Sil-Tone Sequentium VMC. The VMC combines three thermolysis techniques using microfalsh, flash and slow flash when the current is activated in a single hair follicle. There are other fabulous computerized epilators as well with their own engineering and patent designs that work great, also, but my experience comes from using the VMC.

Basic science researchers and hair experts, like Shuster, of “recent” appearance in his reprinted book of 1997, has even said that there has been no resolution on this complex issue. He states that “we await more critical studies” on many things related to hair destruction. Too bad he did not have access to a VMC or certain Apilus models, etc., that are here with us today. I would love to hear that he or someone like him are conducting specific research with these improved tools.

How do you study this issue? Some thoughts for you when you read a published study that concludes a number grade like 80-90% regrowth rate for deep, terminal hairs when using flash thermolysis. Ask yourself:

How can you know with certainty that you are observing the identical hair follicle that was destroyed weeks, months, years later if a new hair appears? What year was this study conducted? What methods were used? What epilators were used and then compared? What were the probe choices? Insulated? Gold? Stainless steel? What diameter probe was used? Probe depth into the follicle? Did it match the hair size? What kind of skill are we talking about concerning the electrologist/researcher? Were the studies performed on animals? Dogs? Rats? (and you know with all your degree’s that animals are not humans). Time of year? Hormonal environment of the individual? Temperature in the testing room? Pre-shaving done prior to electrolysis? Age? Sex? Race? How many subjects were studied? Four women or four hundred women? Were the results duplicated? Any personal bias involved? Will some one benefit financially by a certain outcome? Is a certain result dependent on outside funding? Are there multiple sources that back up your 80-90% statement?

A study that has been repeated over and over with the same conclusions has to do with the effects of shaving on hair growth. Now that has real meaning and thus consenses.

I am like you. I don’t get sucked in by the glit and hype of manufactuer self-interest claims. What impresses me is actual results and outcome.

I have been actively using the Silhouet-Tone VMC for 34 months now. I am observing a huge pattern of timely and permanent hair removal on all hair types in all areas, on all races. I document and review my client charts an on regular basis. I am not seeing huge regrowth rates when I exclusively use microflash thermolysis on the bikini line. Am I a scientist? No, but I am observing something real taking place and I have happy clients in the end. This isn’t magic. No one has ever come back to me demanding their money back because of lack of results, in fact, if they come back,they want another area worked on. Do I need a study to tell me microflash thermolysis works?

So,I am describing and sharing what I know:
Microflash thermolysis is effective on deep, terminal hairs, whether you want to acknowledge that or not is non of my business.

I also use blend for situations where I believe it is necessary.

Hopefully, you can provide the published studies you keep mentioning so we can all peruse and learn.

Thanks,

Dee

55

Slightly ot: What kind of flash setting would you use for, say, really coarse chin hairs with a VMC? (% and time, or auto setting.) I must admit I do prefer blend (I won’t go into why as I have no proof other than the results I see) but I like to use flash whenever it’s quicker and the skin can tolerate it.

56

I would go to the chin program and start at a lower level than you think you need and work up to the level where the hair releases well. You also have the “M” button to slightly increase the energy between the levels. For instance, if you are positioned on Chin > Very Coarse > Level 1 Tolerance 1 and you need more energy, you can pop it up to level 2. If level 2 seems to be too much energy, then you can fall back to level 1 and highlight the “M” button and increase it in tinier increments to M+1, M+2 etc. until the the hair releases and the skin reacts well. The “M” button will go all the way to +50 and all the way down to -50, by the way.

Start low and work your way up. Use the correct probe size as well and make sure your probe is positioned at the bottom of the follicle before energy is released. Set the auto timer longer ( maybe 1.5 - 2.0 seconds?) until you adjust to working without a footswitch. As you get comfortable and speedier you can lower the timer to suit your abilities. Someone I know well sets the auto timer to .3 seconds. Now that’s flying fast!

There are other combinations you can use in the manual modes on the VMC, but then you might lose the comfort factor. Also, you can work lower in the preset programs by enabling the RF button. It’s all in your manual.

I can’t give you specific program levels because every client has different hair structures and moisture levels. On a new case, start low and meander upwards until you find the working point. Encourage the client to tell you if it feels too strong. For the ones who don’t give me feedback, I watch their respirations and foot action as those are non-verbal clues that tell me to make some adjustments. If someone starts snoring while you are working on them and the hair is releasing well, I guess that is a clue saying they are pretty comfortable.

By the way, I like blend on the chin as well and the VMC does a great job with this modality in it’s presets. I use it frequently. As I have said before in this thread, I use blend and microflash within the same session on the same client. It all depends and you develop the flexibilty to just sense what to do and when to do it after a while.

Dee

57

Thanks so much Dee, that’s pretty much how I was trying it out although I’m finding it hard to use the auto timer. The manual I got was a bit sketchy, maybe because I bought mine from the Swiss office (I needed the 230v model).

58

Hi Pam,
I found auto-timer/auto-sense is something that I need to work into gradually over a long period of time. At first I thought, one day you make the decision to discard the pedal, stumble a bit, but then learn to hit the insertions on the fly. It hasn’t been like that. What’s happened with me is that I will use automatic on very clear, even, flat areas (outer side of thigh, abdomen, inside of shin) on about 1.0 seconds delay, but go back to the pedal on knees, upper front thigh, and of course, feet). For me, there’s just no way I can make a good, duplicate, sure insertions one-off in these areas to justify using automatic. So if you ask me can I use auto? I’d say, only when conditions are just right. Or in James’ terms; The Force is only with me sometimes, it disappears when things get tough. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Just my two cents on auto mode

Mantaray

59

Yes, it’s definitely easier in some areas but the area under the chin/top of the throat in particular are really tricky. Anyway, it took me ages to get used to the pedal compared to fingerswitches so I’d better just practise a bit more.