Electrolysis payed cash...Should I ask for a deal?

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
1

Since this is an open discussion forum, I thought I could share this with you…

I started electrolysis in a beauty center with a lady last summer. Then, she wanted to open her own business, and asked her clients if they would be interested to keep on working with her.

Since she’s really a good electrologist, I said yes. But the fact is that I have to go to her home for the treatments, wich is very far but also not very practical for me to be honest… But anyway, I ve decided to get rid of my unwanted hair, so it’s not really the point.

The fact is that she asks me to pay cash and the same price I payed before in the beauty center, wich is 106 € wich is about 145 $ for 90 min.
Now I’m am wondering if I should ask her for a reduction, since she doesnt have to pay any taxes or charges on that money, but also since I am her BEST client (she is aware of that): I take a minimum of 20 hours, sometimes to 30 hours per month (she is doing my full body work).

Now I am really ashamed to ask her for a discount, because I became like friend with her (we see eachother for like 6/8 hours per week!), but on the other side, I find it is not fair from her to ask me to pay all in CASH, and at the same rate as in the center…

Dea, James, what do you think? Others are really welcome to answer as well :wink:

Do you do any discounts for clients like me who are purchasing large treatment area? What are your rates?

I hope you will help me to take a decision about that…Any answer will be helpfull!!!

Thanks a lot!

2

I don’t think it would be insulting to ask. Just understand that any deal she might give you would most likely be dependant upon you paying UPFRONT and there would be a clause or two addressing how she can charge you for missed appointments, and if you, for some reason decide not to finish your pre-paid block, she can recalculate your completed treatments at the original rate, for the purpose of figuring any refund you may be due.

3

Bonjour Victoire:

I would ask for a discount for the following reasons:

1- You are travelling out of your way to see her.

2- Her overhead is a lot less since she is working
from her home. Also since you are paying cash it’s
probably undeclared income for her, so she doesn’t have
to pay income tax on it.

I would simply explain to her that it is a bit inconvenient
for you to travel that far and ask if she can do anything
about the price since you are a good customer and paying cash.
It is worth a try.

Alicia

4

It could also be that the salon she was working for was taking such a big percentage of what she took in that she is now finally making what she deserves to make.

5

I second “Choice’s” motion.

I have known people who worked at doctor’s offices, and salons who were making as little as $10 per hour for their work. Some were only paid only for actual treatment time. That means that if there were only two appointments that day, or people did not show up, the practitioner could get paid only $20 for the day, and might have to sit and wait hours in between appointments.

She is better off at home. That is if you don’t mind the lack of the much discussed marble flooring and water feature in the waiting room. :wink:

6

Thank you all for your answers!

Well, I really don’t mind paying upfront.

Do you think it is okay if I ask her for a discount of 19,6% (which is the VAT here) (=> 90 € / 127 $ for 90 min) considering the fact that she doesn’t pay any taxes on that income and that I’m doing between 20 and 30 hours per month?

PS. In the salon she worked for before, she told me she was payed 1700 € (2400 $) per month for working 35h/week. Now she is working part time in another salon, and the rest of the time at home, for cash. And, with the ammount of hours I am doing, I’m paying her more than her previous salary in cash…

Other disadvantages are the following ones:

  • I don’t have my week ends free anymore: because she lives very far away from Paris, I only can travel there on saturdays (we do at least 6 hours per sat.).
    When I had my treatments at the beauty salon, it was 15 min from my work, so I was able to go there at my lunch break or after work, doing a total of 6 hours a week as well.

  • At her home, nothing is really comfortable: I’m laying on her sofa, sometimes her kids and little baby are interrupting us…

Hence, considering the fact that it is an undeclared income for her + the disadvantages I just mentionned, I believe that, even if she is skilled, the conditions of the treatment and my comfort are 0…

By the way, how do you charge it in the US? How much are your fees for an hour (just to know, because I plan to move there next summer in LA)? I saw LAgirl said 50 $ per hour (Which is 35,41 €)???

Thanks to all for helping me to take my decision!! :smiley:

7

I would never mention most of what you have said in discussing this with her, if you want to have her in a charitable frame of mind. The only thing you have mentioned that effects her treatment capabilities is the fact that she has not purchased a proper treatment table/salon chair.

Whereas you may think that the fact that your current business may add up to more than she was being paid for the month, you are not looking at the fact that your job will be finished sometime, you could move sometime soon, or you could just stop going to her for what ever reason. Everyone seems to look at what people make per hour, and they don’t look at what goes into making that happen, or how many unsold hours there are in the day, or how many missed appointments we never get paid for, nor any of the capital investments in the business we have put in, and continue to put in.

The only thing I would say to her in discussing this is the fact that the salon was easier to work into your schedule, as would another practitioner closer to work or home, and the reduced comfort of the couch in place of the proper treatment table/salon chair and your willingness to prepay a certain amount up front in exchange for a discount on the volume of treatment you are looking to have done.

When you get to the United States, you will find that $50 per hour is a little on the low side, especially in LA. $60 is the national average, and in large cities $100 to $150 per hour is not unheard of. In fact, I don’t know many professionals who are charging anything outside the range of $80 of $120 per hour. Also, in the US, many practitioners have a varying time scale, where one pays more per minute for a short appointment than one pays for an hour. In this way, a 15 minute appointment may be $45 a 30 minute appointment $65 and an hour $100.

Getting back to your situaion, offer to make an up front payment, and maybe purchase of a proper treatment/adjustable salon chair in exchange for a discounted hourly rate. I would not discuss anything other than your own personal inconveniences in continuing to come to her. A plumber redoing a bathroom for you is not likely to charge less for his labor just because he is not working through his regular employer. What you will save will be the permit fees insurance fees and taxes.

The good news is, you already have a baseline to work with. You already know she might be willing to work for you in a situation where you pay her 1700 Euro-Dollars for roughly 150 hours of work. Who knows, increase the pre-payment, and you could get an even better deal.

8

Fees vary according to overhead, or at least should. I know of a woman charging more than me who has a very old epilator and reading glasses as oppossed to my updated equipment. Prices range between $45 per hour to over a $100 per hour.

The home thing sounds horrible. A sofa? Her back and neck will give out soon and then you won’t have an electrologist to do your work. I would not like the interruption with little kids, or anyone, on something so personal. I hope a French tax official is not reading this post or they may hunt down the electrologist who collects cash from her home and doesn’t report the income. With taxes as high as they are in France, I can’t blame her for wanting to keep more of her income though.

There is nothing wrong with asking for a better price with all those hours you are putting in. I would do it for someone who pre-pays, with the stipulation that for any missed appointments, money would be deducted and that money cannot be returned once you get that good price deduction. You have to use your whole package.

You will find a lot of great electrologists in California who are in a professional setting, so no worries there.

Dee

9

Thank you for your answers to both of you James and Dee !

I guess I will ask her next saturday, but honestly, I’m feel really confused to ask her, because, like I said, we became like friends… Its just the fact that I’m still a student, and my parents took a credit for it. When I told them the situation, they said they would not pay anymore if I wouldnt ask for a deal, a discount of like 20% regarding the situation, or if not, they would prefer to pay my treatment in the beauty center again, because, according to them, not only it’s much more practical, but also more secure :s:s

Anyway, I won’t give up with my treatment because of that, because I’m really satisfied!

Ps. James, I never asked her what was the salary she got before, she told me that by herself someday…

Also, in the begining, when she asked me if I would keep on with her (last summer, when she still worked in the salon), she said that she was looking for a salon, and now, she’s saying that she will work from her home, because its more practical for taking care of the kids.

I’m really sory to bother you with my concerns, I just wanted to know your opinions about that, and if it was okay to ask for a deal…

I’ll keep you updated :wink:

10

I understood perfectly that you had not solicited that information from her. I tell you, those movies that show mob and political murders need to show more hairdressers and electrologists getting bumped off for “knowing too much.” The things people tell us without our even asking.

I don’t mean to discourage you from asking for the discount. I just hoped to guide you into doing it in a way that would be most promising.

A pre-payment is the way to go, as it actually gives her a reason for giving you the discount. There is no reason for her to give you a discount AND wait for her money. (believe it or not, I have prospective clients ask me to allow them to run a tab AND give them the finished product, and a discount on the owed work on the logic that it is such a large amount of work they are planning on having done. Um, yeah, I am supposed to extend you no interest credit, wait to get paid, AND give you a discount? Where else would anyone even ask this question? It is not like I can reposess the clear skin I have created if they don’t pay. We are not running a hotel, where we can sell unoccupied rooms for less during the slow season just to make a little extra cash.)

11

I also wouldn’t assume, and definitely wouldn’t mention, that she isn’t paying taxes just because she wants cash. She may be stashing the cash for other personal reasons, such as an impending divorce.

Have you tried other electrologists? The sofa and the children interrupting would be a huge turnoff for me. I’ve heard of using the dining room table before, but never a sofa. Dee’s right, her back isn’t going to allow that for long. Hopefully a treatment table/chair is on order. You can have a home office that is more professional and hygienic than a physician’s office.

12

My concern here is the professionalism and ethical issues. This electrologist might be excellent, BUT

  1. Is she following proper sterilization protocols?
  2. Does she have malpractice insurance?
  3. The surroundings…no need to say more about that!
  4. Taxes. She could go to jail, couldn’t she?
  5. Licenses. She could be prevented from practicing in the future.

Is anyone else concerned about these issues?

13

Thank James for your advises, I will ask her that way tomorrow, and will keep you posted.

Choice, yes I know another good electrologist, she is working in the beauty salon in which my current electrologist used to work as well, and she is also very skilled and very professional, it’s just that i have a better personnal relationship with my current electrologist.

Barbara, yes she’s using proper sterelization protocols
No she doesnt have malpractice insurance, in fact she’s not declared, I mean she just bought the machine and thats it.

Thank you all for your responses!

14

What good does malpractice insurance do the clients?
Malpractice insurance is for when something goes horribly wrong. Although that happens with LASER even when everything is done as best as one can, in order to cause injury that rises to the level of malpractice, an electrologist must be either incompetent, or really negligent. Even then, the person has to sit through it one follicle at a time. It is unlikely that neither the customer, nor the practitioner would discontinue the treatments, or look to have modifications made to the treatment if things were going that horribly wrong.

Even the electrolysis malpractice insurance companies admit that the money they pay out on malpractice claims is only to cover the legal fees. Almost no one wins against an electrologist in a malpractice case.

Based on actual claims paid, it is more important for a practitioner to have coverage against slips, falls, theft and damage to equipment. Even then, it is the practitioner who benefits from the insurance.

What matters to the client here is that she knows how to do the work, she is performing good work. Sure she needs to take it up a notch on the work-station, but nothing else here has any more influence on a customer’s buying habits than buying a coach handbag at a street vendor. It may be an unlicensed replica, but if it looks like a coach, and none of your girlfriends can tell that it isn’t an official coach, one feels one got her money’s worth…maybe a little bit more than one’s money’s worth.

15

Well, one of the little kids could come up and cause the electrologist to lose control of the needle or forceps. Let’s say the client gets poked in the eye. Do you think this woman’s homeowners insurance will take care of this?

16

So once again, we are talking about what amounts to a slip and fall type accident.

What you have described is not mal-practice, it is an accident.

The reason mal-practice is so hard to prosecute against an electrologist is because unlike LASER, we work one follicle at a time, and it is assumed that any mistakes are done one follicle at a time, and most real problems would be a one shot deal, so to speak. In other cases, the electrologist can do the work to heal the person’s skin, or pay for a relatively inexpensive treatment (like microdermabraision) to fix the problem. It would be rare that any problem arising from an electrolysis treatment would rise above a small claims case, like those seen on the popular US TV court shows. Even if an electrologist were to mistakenly do one follicle at the full power of the Apilus Platinum and therefore blow a hole in the person’s skin, that would be one follicle, and the electrologist could cover the expenses for treating that one follicle. A judge would not find one spot on one’s face to be worth a million dollar settlement.

Actual mal-practice requires one to perform in a grossly negligent mannor, or to do something wrong that it is assumed that one in the field should know. The most likely thing I could see someone successfully winning a mal-practice claim against an electrologist (rather than an accidental damage claim) would be the case where an electrologist actually did plug in the cords wrong on an older machine, and therefore tattooed every follicle worked on due to the fact that hydrochloric acid was being produced in the follicle instead of lye. (which in this reversed polarity case would be produced by the inactive/ground pole)

This is why straight mal-practice policies in the US for electrologists are actually cheap. Practices with a LASER in addition to true electrology and the policies that include tripped, slipped, and got startled by a car backfiring in the parking lot and I thought it was a gunshot and poked the person’s eye out, that cost more.

17

The potential eye injury from a child’s action in an unprofessional setting is just as bad as any injury that would occur in a professional setting. In fact, it could turn out worse because she does not have professional liability insurance.

So, will this possible accident be covered by her homeowners insurance?

Probably not because she is working illegally.

18

A word about insurance.
The way it always works is, you pay them, and they do everything in their power NOT to pay you.

No matter how much insurance you have, and how many different sources you have it from, when it is time for THEM to pay out, the excuses for why they won’t pay, or won’t pay everything you think they should pay come fast and furious.

I have a friend who has an auto repair shop.
During a holiday weekend, a fire started at his business location. Being a careful business man, he and his family were fully covered by all insurances they knew to take out, and duitifully locked up all customer cars inside the building every night.

The fire gutted their business, and destroyed all the customer cars left in their garage over the weekend.

Their insurance company spent a year arguing over what they would and would not cover, and in the end REFUSED to pay for any customer cars. Their logic was – get this – Since the fire was not your fault, we don’t have to pay for the damage! If you had left a blowtorch on, and that caused the fire, we would cover the customer cars, because it was your mistake that caused the fire (of course, if that were the case, they would be saying, “Since your incompetence caused the fire, we are charging you with arson, and as such, not paying for anything.”)

Although it bankrupted them, this family business paid for every customer car out of their own money. They even borrowed money to cover the costs. (one of the cars was a priceless, irreplaceable classic) The lousy thing is, although the local media did a story to embarrass the family business over the long time the customers waited to get their cars paid for, not one of the local media laid the blame where it belonged, The Insurance Carrier.

In any event, getting someone else to pay for the incident you describe would be a contentious process.