Why is permanent hair removal so hard to achieve in 2016? … Is there some conspiracy going on? … If there was a pill/ cream that scientists discovered that would permently get rid of unwanted hair, hay, that would be the end of the hair business, ie…hair removal cream/razors…I
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If there is a way to track how much public and private money is invested into research for permanent hair removal then that’s where your answer will be. When medical lasers were being developed, hair removal was not the goal but an accidental side effect that turned into a market.
Electrolysis is 100+ years old but it hasn’t advanced much until recent decades, and in all these decades the knowledge and practice has not spread well around the world. Even in North America the industry is struggling. Can you imagine if dentistry today was as rarely available globally as electrolysis is still?
Yeah, I know electrolytes has been around for a long time, I’m just trying to understand why (electrolytes) is the only method… And I also wonder why electrolytes is not available in some countries, I’ve read posts on here of people traveling 100’s of miles away, some even traveling to other countries to get treatment.
For a number of reasons electrology remains a hidden cottage industry. Even with the pressure/competition of laser (that, in my opinion helped electrology), certain factors have been in play for decades that keep this practice “in the closet.”
Here’s a hint. Imagine that you need to get a new crown on one of your teeth. Today, you would expect a dentist in, say, Rochester, New York and one in Phoenix, Arizona to basically perform the identical task. One dentist might be better, but you would expect identical treatment and identical product.
This is not the case with electrology. We are replete with conflicting "ideology’ (that’s all it deserves to be called), self-trained or "under-trained’ practitioners and schools and manufacturers that keep secrets (or falsehoods) and promote whatever self-serving notions that keep them in business.
Certain websites (like this one) are doing a fine job, but there is still a brutal need for openness in this creepy little field. A scant few individuals, like Jossie and Dee Dee, SHOW EVERYTHING, “sans-puffery,” to promote the entire enterprise for all of us. Still, most practitioners live in their own tiny cloistered cocoon and add nothing to the overall effort.
Defeating the misconceptions and inconsistent ideologies has to start at the source, in the schools where electrology is taught. There is no such consistency.
Last week I happened to be at the offices of Dectro, comparing a couple machines. They had the school instructor advising us and doing the demonstration.
I would say about a fifth of this demonstration was about how we should convince clients to come in at least every 2-3 weeks, so we could catch all the hairs in Anogen. It was enough, my partner looked at me afterwards and said “I dont think I’m going to have you train here”.
Yesterday i picked up a textbook in the office I hadn’t read before, I’ll protect the guilty and just say I didn’t get beyond the first 15 or so pages of introduction to skin and theory, before a serious anogen only theory was clearly being presented.
If we cant be consistent with CURRENT training with what is known in the world of electrology, how can we hope for consistent treatment across practitioners? I think the procedure, and the system, are irreconcilably broken. Just saying.
Seana
I am in agreement that laser hair reduction has been one of the biggest boosters for electrolysis. When laser reduction has done all it can to reduce hair or if it has stimulated hair growth on vulnerable facial and body areas, in some? many? people, there is good old faithful come through friend, electrolysis, to clean up the job that laser couldn’t do. Electrologists out there no what I’m talking about. We have all received emails or phone calls requesting help after laser.
May I inject here that I am a big fan of laser hair reduction? I am only saying what is. I have three laser businesses that I share with my clients if they want to do laser hair reduction for areas that typically respond well, so please no private messages condemning me for bashing laser hair reduction. I like that there is another modality that gives the consumer choices in a free market.
MENTORSHIP
Michael, I thought two students from a school here in Ohio were coming to my office yesterday. They didn’t come, so probably something got miscommunicated to them from the staff at the school, but anyway, I was more than happy to talk with them and show them how to make perfect insertions, etc. This creepy little field wouldn’t be so creepy if seasoned electrologists would gladly SHARE what they do and what they know with the neophyte electrologists entering the field. Too many are doing laser (because it is less taxing on the body and technically easier to do) after they graduate from an electrolysis training program and they never will hone in on how to do speedy and deadly electrolysis on ANY AREA of the face or body.
It is technically very difficult to do electrolysis and many students give up if there is no mentor involved after they graduate. MENTORSHIP is a precious gift we give to the next generation of electrologists. You and Jossie have more than done your share of mentoring, for which I bow down and thank you.
Someday I will retire and my goal is to pass the baton to someone young that I can trust so my clients will have a seamless transition to continue their electrolysis care. Clients who have experienced having an enthusiastic professional electrologist doing their work with great care and results, usually make the best electrolysis students. No need to sell them on what a great profession this is. They want what we have and what we have is a great small business, where we are in control of our own schedule, but best of all, we meet the nicest people and constantly learn new stuff from our clients.
I promise to get more involved with showing more pictures. It takes a lot of time to post a case study here, but I will post a few when I get to it, complete with time and insertion counts and $$$.
Well said Seana …
You have to wonder “what the hell?” The “anagen-only thing” (I can’t call it anything else), was refuted in 1968 (Hinkel’s text that everybody reads). Telogen hairs were treated successfully (documented) as early as 1936.
So, what’s the deal? Is this a religion or a science? Do we need a “reformation?” Importantly, (I know you are BRAVE enough), you might have said “BS BS BS” to the instructor. Maybe you might have caused a problem … but maybe initiated some thinking too?
I would not poo-poo Dectro based on the anagen only point.
There are competing ideas, true. Take it or leave it and say and do what you believe is true. I have heard both sides to this anagen verses any stage issue and I can ascribe validity to both.
I’m on the hunt for something that I saw on Electrology International… be back in a flash…
I found it! This was written by an electrologist with 40 + years of experience:
“I’m a logical thinker, therefore, this is my logic: The hair follicle has little or no moisture in the Telogen stage, and far less in Catagen than in Anagen. Galvanic electrolysis requires moisture (water) in the follicle to produce the sodium, hydroxide which destroys the hair follicle. Thermolysis “cooks” the hair follicle using radio frequency in a similar manner as a microwave oven produces destructive heat in foods that it cooks. However, both modalities need water to work effectively. The drier the substance to be heated, the less heat is produced. Following this logic to its ultimate conclusion, it would follow that the moister (wetter) the follicle, the more heat can be produced to destroy the follicle using thermolysis, and in galvanic electrolysis, wet follicles would produce more sodium hydroxide than drier ones, thus responding to the treatment faster and more thoroughly.”
What doesn’t make sense to this explanation? I don’t think the folks at Dectro or writing textbooks are misguiding people.
“Good on you” Dee Dee … (the Aussie guy is still here … leaving today: VERY interesting post-laser case).
On MENTORING!
The AEA has been discussing their “mentoring program” for at least 2-years now. Pats and I have sort-of put forward a pretty neat idea. I wonder how much longer this is going to be “in discussion?” Last I heard, “the schools may not like the plan.” My answer: WHO CARES?
Curious iconoclasts want to know.
I agree with you Dee … Dectro is fine (I think).
But, there are not “two sides to every story.” Removing telogen hairs is objective fact that can be duplicated endlessly. One side is just wrong.
It’s like this: the earth is either FLAT or ROUND … there are “two sides to the issue.” Well, no there are not two side to the issue. The “flat earth believers” (and there are a few) are just wrong.
When savvy clients ask me about anagen only hairs, I shrug my shoulders and I present the differing talking points in our industry BUT!! I tell them not to worry about that - I treat every hair that looks like a flag coming out of the ground and I destroy hair follicles no matter what stage of growth it is in. If they don’t trust me, they can go to Dectro for treatment.
There are two sides to this story and both sides still declare victory/success in the end.
So, I always wondered if those that say anagen only, ignore hairs that show clues of NOT being an anagen hair?
You’re too kind Dee Dee. They’re just stupid!
The good news, is that there are those of us that DO collaborate here and in other places like the two FB groups. Unfortunately, there will always be bad electrologists out there and there will always be people looking to hide what they do, even though there is no shortage of work to be done and the most any one person can do by themselves, is own one relatively small market since there are only so many hours in the day.
Sharing our knowledge hurts nobody, but it brings tremendous benefits… Alas, there are those that are too insecure, incompetent, shameful or lazy to want to collaborate more.
Michael, you’re right I do have a big enough mouth I could have sat there and said “wrong wrong wrong” unfortunately it was somewhat tempered by the requirement that I be on most professional best with a vendor that was supplying a major piece of equipment I am likely to be using for several years. In fact , this very morning I was on the phone to them, having successfully diagnosed a problem and got a replacement part shipped out today.I suppose that it’s possible that providing ones professional best, would make a difference in future interactions.
Dee, I 10000000000% agree with you on mentoring. I’ve followed some of my mentors advice ( yourself included) with great success and it’s advice that has served me well every bit of it. I could not have gotten as far as I have as well without some really good advice from the lady I work with. She was able to guide me through the business aspects of runniing an electrology practise with good success.I would not have been able to provide the image, the premises, the scheduling, the consultation routines, without her advice and tutelage, heck even the billing systems themselves. I do unfortunaely think that apprentising is becoming something of a lost art in electrology. It doesnt hapoen in many cases. THis is to the detriment of the profession, because it is a valuable tool.
As for "poo-poo-ing " dectro, heck no! I have a REALLY good relationship with Dectro as a supplier. Their courses in electrology are widely recognized in the profession. I was just really surprised to see this doctrine so widely promoted, and even done so by someone who is considered world leader in electrology equipment supply and education.
But as to the original question regarding moisture content in the follicles, I disagree with your quoted electrologist on one major point: Telogen does not mean there is NO MOISTURE. With doing as much blend as I have done, I am practised at looking for the telltale lye crust to tell me I have produced ENOUGH lye to destroy the follicle. I have never failed to get that whether the hair is telogen, catogen or anogen. So there IS enough moisture in the follicle to create a lye reaction . “Dryer” does not mean dessicated dry! We can of course measure the amount of moisture through many of our mahines, but the reading we get is relative to the scale and calibration of the test. If there is enough moisture to create a lye crust, there is most definitely enough to successfully treat a follicle, and it is this that Michael and Josepha have proven time and again with empirical evidence. When thermolysis is performed , the radio energy travels into the tissues .These tissues are not “dry” in any conventional sense of the term, and certainly not desicated dry as would be required to prevent it being heated ny radioo energy. When you heat up a pasta in the microwave, we are not immersing it in a pool of water, the water contained in the tissues is more than sufficient.It’s exactly the same process with thermolysis, so why would we expect a different result?
What DOES bother me though, is that I keep running across places that are passing on educational material ( be they schools, books) that then take this ( wrong) information and use it as a basis of everything they teach from there-on. If you build a pyramid atop a marsh, it’s gonna sink!
Seana
I don’t think you have a ‘big mouth’ … you’re just not afraid to state your opinion. I honor that. But this "dry follicle’ nonsense … hummmm.
Hairs in telogen are not "dry’ … they are keratinized and part of the epidermis (that’s also "dry’). The target area, below the keratinized hair remnant, is just as "moist’ as the rest of the skin.
Still, you cannot win this debate with logical arguments. Even a case-study won’t work with the true believers, because their "method works’ … and that’s what Dee was saying (I think).
However, "we’ are missing a gigantic marketing possibility: "ONLY electrolysis can destroy hairs in telogen! Laser cannot; electrolysis can … and does.’
Indeed, laser induces hairs to "go into’ a long period of telogen … My client from Australia … lasered … had 90% of his back hairs in telogen. If this guy had continued with laser, his results would have been abysmal. I was able to destroy all his hairs in TELOGEN with electrolysis.
How about this … "electrolysis can remedy your failed laser treatments. Continuing with laser never will, because you now have abundant telogen hairs.’
Jesus, we keep missing the boat! Start getting aggressive people … we have "the real deal!’ I vote Seana for president of the AEA … hey, if Ted Cruz (yuck) can run for president why not another Canadian? Ha ha ha
AEA? No way are you getting me south of the border. My usual argument would be guns, but there was a shooting/homicide directly across the street last night so maybe that doesnt hold water,but as a transperson, I’ll be honest it’s not safe to travel in your country.
Seana
Buzz words alone won’t be enough. If an electrologist excites me that she can kill telogen hair too but the process is as slow as if she’s working in “anagen only” then what’s the point? Training needs to improve so there is no under-treatment of same hairs for over 2 years when industry buzz word is 9-18 months to finish electrolysis treatments.
It makes no sense to mislead oneself, and continue misinforming the people with misleading arguments.
I must be a lousy thinker, because instead of making assumptions, I provide evidence.
Here is the proof that the treatment of telogen hairs responds at least as good as anagen hairs.
For those who do not know what we’re talking about, the root of telogen hairs is like a grain of salt, while the anagen have a more elongated root with a black dot at the end.
I LOVed seeing all those white hair roots coming out, but best of all the trail of slime that followed a few of them out. Do those follicles look DRY to you??
Fantastic Josepha.
Seana
As a consumer of electrolysis, overall I am satisfied with my results, but sometimes I wonder what goes on at these schools? An electrologist told me that they were taught that a 60% kill rate is the ideal. It’s almost as if dedicated and skilled electrologists end up “unlearning” a lot from their formal instruction…